14-13-2 Conversion to Amateur-Built Experimental Class

J

jmay2174

New member
I started this thread below in the "Bellanca 260 project" however, I think it is more appropriate under this heading. I would love to keep it in it's original condition, but to be frank, I don't have the funds to do a certified restoration project and keep it flying afterwords. My original post was:

I have a 14-13-2 which I am planning to covert to an experimental homebuilt, similar to the Viking. I was surprised by Randy's' suggestion to replace the plywood/fabric covering with a Fiberglas/graphite fiber cover as it had never crossed my mind.

Randy, How much weight would be reduced by doing the change? I am not too familiar with the glassing processes so here are a couple of questions.

Would you leave the wood ribs and form glas sheet covers to replace the plywood or would you completely build new wings with foam shaping the wing under the glas?

How would you determine that your wing strength is greater than the original wing?

Ken McCune suggested using parts from a boat trim/tilt system on the stern drive and using it for the landing gear hydraulic retraction system

Ken, I would like to see the drawings of the dual door and stick control. Can you make copies or send them, or I can make copies and return them to you.

I look forward to your comments, Joel
 
Dave (Alabamaflyboy) asked:

"I'm curious about what you have to do to get the Feds to grant an experimental license. I thought you had to construct 51% of the airplane."

I have not asked the feds specifically about my conversion, however, there was a 14-13 on the East Coast a year or two ago that did a conversion. In his case, he built a new (or modified) fuselage and used a V-6 power plant along with Bellanca wings to meet the 51% rule.

I have nothing set in concrete but, I think I will build completely new wings. I also plan to use a Wankel rotary for my power plant. I do want to maintain the overall appearance of the Bellanca but make improvements that were not available in 1947. I have had a woodworking hobby for 40 years and feel quite comfortable working with wood. I have also been involved in auto mechanics for years and have taken a number of automotive courses at the local J.C

Joel
 
Does anyone have or know where I can get or borrow drawings for the wing construction. Either 14-13 or 14-19 would be great. It would save a lot of time disassembling and measuring my old wings.

Thanks, Joel
 
Joel,
You may be able to get them from the Smithsonian archives. Check out their website...

[Inappropriate URL Removed]

Please let me know how you make out. I am also considering some kind of rebuild and modification to make my Cruisair a no-longer-Cruisair experimental.

How's the project coming?

Mike
 
Why don't you build modern composite wings that will fit on Bellanca fuselages. That way you can save the Bellanca species by selling wings to guys who are losing their planes to the ravages of wood & the second law of thermodynamics.

I will find the drawing for stick conversions. planebones
 
Well, I love the Cruisair's airfoil. Besides, my wings would need rebuilding, so it wouldn't do anyone a favor to sell them my wings. Like so many of you, I have more than one Cruisair, neither of which is flying, and both of which are taking up space and costing my money to store.

I'd like to have a flying Cruisair again (I loved mine before it was grounded for wing rot), but I'd also like to go experimental with at least one, so I could, well, experiment without the feds minding.
 
Folks have gone experimental for years with Cruisairs, though for different reasons. One guy stuck a Ford engine in his. I cruises at the speed you'd expect, but it's an engine he knows. Some want the best gear in the business, none of which is certified, such as the TruTrack autopilot, Blue Mountain glass, after market fuel injection, or even turbo normalizing.

Now the airfoil...ah, that's a tough one. Far and away the finest airfoil in GA is the Bellanca B, but no two wing ribs are the same. Go composite? It is a composite, abeit with materials the British Mosquito employed. Go Beech Starship with the skins and you'll find out what Beech did - well...no you won't. Beech had tight specifications for the layups and materials. It was the FAA that caused the overbuilding that caused the extra weight that doomed the Starship. For us, for all but the extremely skilled, the layups will add weight, they will be no smoother than G.M.'s, but at least you'll have a wing you can use.

A true homebuilt version of the Bellanca Cruiseair would have curved edges to the fuselage, glass smooth wings, and gear that would completely retract, even if that means bumps on the top of the wings. Start from a project - not from an airworthy example. The Feds don't simply let you switch categories, especially from an airworthy, certificated example.

If you relish the airspeed indicator entering realms you only used to see in a dive, that could be interesting. If you know you'll find yourself wishing that it were an airworthy Cruisair doing that, then you'll trade one wish for another.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that time/labor/expense of the two would be a wash. Consider that. And if you go glass, please let us know :)

Jonathan
 
Do you really know what your getting into? You will find like most of these experimental dreams, that it would be much cheaper and much less time to restore your plane to the original specs! I've seen it more than once,all these grandiose ideas and dreams started and never finished. :( Lynn N9818B the crate
 
One other salient point: glassed wings would have to be white, unless you had a rather enormous oven to cook them in. Not that white is a bad color....
 
Here is my 2 cents
With original design wooden wing, you will go another 50 years if well taken care of.
You want them shining?
Do the normal fabric work with minimum seams. Apply your silver UV protection, apply 5-6 coats of fabric filler. Like greenish gray. Water sand with 400 or 600 grit paper. Use a small rubber block but be careful not to go thru. You will see as you go. Apply another 2 -3 coat of filler. Sand with again 600. Apply the needed coat of dope to cover well and add a couple more to have material to work with. You'll see what I mean.
Let dry a week or two. Sand with 1200 or 1400 grit paper to cut the little grain of dust or orange peel. Use buffer with about 2000 r.p.m. and medium compound, finish with fine compound. Be carefull not to overheat the surface. And a good quality wax. You will have a wing that will shine like you wouldn't believe, just looking like glass finish. A good polymer wax will protect it. And maintain it with that wax 2 or 3 time a year. This will be a fraction of the work, weight and cost of a glass wing. Will just be a little heavier of a pound or two than original.
Done it on my Bakeng Deuce. It was..sorry for the expression, but fuc...shining just like a Porsche finish and it was black. If one color show defect it is a dark color like black. I just done my fuselage on my 14-13-2 last summer. Not to that extend, didn't paint it but sanded it with 1400 and buffed it. You want to see the difference. Any of you, if you need info on the process or product and equipment to use, e-mail me.
Oh yes , some can say you will have this finish with those urtethane and polyurethane. Tried it too but it's a waste for spot repairs. Nothing easier to repair than dope.
I have about 30 years of auto, plane (GA and Airliners) and boat painting behind me. Tried lot of processes. Trust me.

Alain e-mail: mariejoalain@videotron.ca
 
Silly but related question................can you remove a Bellanca from standard category, throw the data plate away, keep a log of all of the changes you make than put it in experimental class?

I have a Cessna 150 fuselage with no papers or data tag & I want to rebuild it with teenagers & put a Subaru up front. The FAA guy I talked to say it is forboten........yet there are three aricraft around here that are now called by various names, but were formerly known as Cessna 150s? planebones
 
On turning a Cruiseair into Exp. After the cost of refinning an auto engine to fit a plane ( I have a 150hp subaru on a KR-1.5 ) And after rebuilding the plane to your liking, You will probably have as much as if you restored it. If you can't afford a shop to do the work( I can't) find an IA that knows wood and talk him into working with you. You will have a resalable plane when it is time to sale. I tore my Cruiseair all the way down to tubes. Replaced 2 longorons, repaired the wood , made new pannel, new interior, rewired,recovered and painted for less than $7000. It took 21 months working nights and weekends.

About painting, That is a lot of sanding to get an Airtex finish. After 5 yrs people still ask if I just painted my plane. All I ever wax is the leading edges to make it easy to remove bugs. I have had to repair the leading edge where I hit a bird and most people can not find the spot. If done right some of the new paints work very well. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
You're right Randy
Proffessional painters or guys that learn fast and are handy will make a nice job with Airtex type paint. But the dope job will still be less work than fiberglassing a wing and will be lighter. Seen guys saling project because tired of sanding fiberglass and stinking up the place with the resin smell. Then after a few years, start to see some cracks in the fiberglass if mix ratio not done well with the hardener or ''over rez'' or too thick of fiber etc. Not talking about the temperature you have to watch when laying it, for proper curing. Might not be a problem down south.
Anyway, all this to say Airtex or dope with good quality compound and buffer if needed, you'll get a very high gloss. Don't need to glass a wing and make it a flying brick. :? Those birds have great wings even if wood. It is not an outdated process. Just need to be watched and taken care of.

Question Randy
Could you blend out your spot repair with Airtex or you had to do a complete panel. You said you did a spot repair on leading edge, How far behind did you went, did you polished the blend around the spot repair? If this make as good job as dope, maybe better option. (have to do my wings in the spring)
I just saw so many manufacturer trying to re invent the wheel and 5-6 years after painting, you start to see those worm shape cracks in the finish. Product loosing flexibility with time and vulnerable to UV. Will be more on fuselage then wings on our bird as it flex more in this area.

Alain.
 
So far the only crack I have is were someone pushed down on the rib over the door and strech the fabric. I have had a problem with the yellow on my plane. They had a problem with the pigment on yellow. We painted 3 planes around the same time and so far they have replaced the paint for 2 of them. I am going to call them and see about the yellow for mine.
This stuff is so flexable that you can take an inspection cut out and fold it in have and it will not crack. I came across a piece a couple of months ago and when I bent it around it still did not crack.
When I painted my leadig edge I stoped at a color change on top and bottom and fanned out to each side. This stuff stays wet and flows for about 20 minutes so it will flow out. :lol: :lol:
 
Something was bothering me about this thread - not the participants - but as I tossed and turned due to Holiday dread, it became clearer. Glass lay-ups, alternate engines, and assorted facts miss Joel's essential point....a point made often on this list. Each year two trends conspire to push a growing number of people out of aircraft ownership: vanishing or stagnating segments of the economy, and the growing cost of aircraft ownership.

Sadly much of this is out of our control. Fewer airports mean fewer hangars meaning a supply/demand rise in the cost of homes for our brilliant wooden steeds. The economy....oy...forget about it. Shop rates? How can you compete with an 18 month auto mechanic program that feeds personnel to a 100 dollar an hour shop rate based business, versus a 24 month program to become an A&P in a business with a shop rate ranging from 40 to 75 bucks an hour? Furthermore shops and FBOs are getting gouged by insurance bills an auto shop will never see. Given that two tenths of one percent of people in the Northern Hemisphere are pilots, I don't expect a public outcry here. Then....ah then you have the FAA.

The only control us 50-somethings have is doing our own work. We've established here there is no wonderous savings if we go experimental, as the hours involved are a wash. There is nothing in a triple tail that isn't old hand to old timers in the EAA. The EAA's heart and soul remains in the Chapters even if the organization itself has abandoned its original core.

In short, we have to have the skills of homebuilders without necessarily turning our aircraft over to the homebuilt category....or make them experimentals. Going exotic with glass and all sorts of elements beyond the original design, however, strikes me as running at cross purposes. Too many of us need the basics first, and what could be more basic than wood and fabric?

FWIW....

Jonathan
 
Randy put this better and in a more direct fashion up-topic :oops:

The previous owner of my Bellanca used a barter system to keep the airplane sharp. He didn't pay money he did not have to get the splendid paint job on his 14-19....he built the painter a deck on his house. He built a custom engine stand for the rebuilder of his O-435 engine; they guy's more lucrative business was rebuilding VO-435s...the sort used in the Bell 47 'copters.

Barter is better....if you have a suitable skill for trade.

Jonathan
 
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