14-19 hydro-selector valve...

T

trombair

New member
greetings, bellanca types!

ok, here's a new one (for me at least).

it's annual time. i've got N522A (14-19) up on jacks and am trying to swing the gear, but in spite of over 100 strokes :? on the manual pump, the gear will not retract more than about 25%. the resevoir is full and there are no external hydraulic leaks. there is definitely fluid being moved by the pump (i can feel the difference in reseistance between pumping with the selector valve held up and not) but no gear retraction. i've not noticed anything unusual when flying; the gear comes up in less than 5 seconds.

anyone else ever have this happen? does it need a re-build? who can do such work? is there any documentation out there? this is the Electrol selector valve Assy no.750-B, serial no.67.

could this be internal leakage in one or both of the retract rams?

any and all suggestions are most welcome. many thanks in advance! :D

blue skies,
vic & N522A
 
Vic, you have a problem in the emerg Stby pump section. If your gear retracts normal with the engine driven hyd pump the problem is in the STBy. This pump system is the same as a Piper Aztec. I will bet it is a bad o ring somewhere in the emerg pump handle. LYNN :evil: :!:
 
hey lynn!

thanks for the suggestion. the only problem is that i believe the selector valve for the 14-19 is different from the 14-19-2. the -2 had the same unit as on the early pipers such as you describe, but the 14-19 was unique. someone told me that the Electrol unit was from a Case tractor, but i have no confirmation of that.

i'll definitely keep everyone posted on the progress and what i find.

blue skies,
vic & N522A
 
Vic, it is probably just an O ring somewhere in the line. If you have to send it out, Airparts Lock Haven in Pa. Airight Products in Wichita KS are two sources. My pump is also a 750 but an N model same pump with different configuration. Aztec is same deal. Good advice is not to go for the jugler at first because it is usually something simple that takes you for a ride. Good luck happens once in awhile to everyone. :D :shock: LYNN
 
greetings!

well, my IA signed off the annual today, but he's not happy about the inability of the emergency pump to fully retract the gear. made me promise to research this problem.

so...i need to find some documentation on this selector pak in order to do more trouble shooting. anyone got anything on the Electrol Industries 750-B Hydro-Selector Pak? i think it's peculiar to the 14-19, but it may have been used on other industrial vehicles. Essco only has the 750-N model and bellanca has nothing. sure would be great if someone had a manual i could copy.
i may also be interested in a "spare" unit to disassemble and possibly have overhauled. anyone got one they'd be willing to part with?

i contacted AirParts of Lockhaven and they said they could do an overhaul, but it would be $1400 :shock:

i think the problem is only with the emergency pump piston. i replaced the 3 O-rings but it still won't work. the rest of the unit seems to operate properly when the engine pump is running.

looking forward to hearing from anyone. many thanks in advance for your assistance.

blue skies,
vic & N522A
 
Lynn:

The 14-19 uses an Electrol 750B - a wholly different part that damned near caused the poor soul who tried to rebuild mine to stroke out. I finally found a used one that works just fine (WHEW).

Vic:

I wouldn't worry too much about that problem. The true emergency situation is getting the gear down when the normal system won't. It's quite amazing how swiftly the gear will drop on its own if all else fails. Next annual, I'd look at those O rings. You may also be able it to the -2 power pack at some point.

Jonathan
 
Jonathan, good to hear from you again! Where have you been and how is your plane? LYNN 8) :lol:
 
Vic,
I had Pifer's Airmotive Inc. in Waterford, MI go through my 750-B. It wasn't cheap. If your balking at $1400, then you really don't want to know what I paid. It hurt. But, I do have pack that is tight.They also bench checked the engine-driven pump. If you want to call them, their number is 1-800-878-0909. Sounds like Lock Haven is a better deal. Tom
 
guys!

thanks for all the input. annual's done and i finally flew today. :D the gear came up and went down just fine with the engine pump running (less than 5 sec each way). it has never given any indications of sagging in flight.

dick pifer quoted me $2500 to do the job and bitched about it the entire conversation. :roll: seems he really didn't want to do it. tom witmer also told me that the last one he had pifer do didn't work properly afterwards and had to be re-done.

i talked with george mckinney at airparts of lockhaven about all this. asked if i could purchase a copy of the maintainence/overhaul manual. he allowed as how they had gone thru hell to get the manual, they weren't going to let any info go out the door at any price. he was friendly, but firm. i was annoyed, but i understand his position. hard to give up a monopoly even for as limited a market as this. :?

so for now, i think i'll just let sleeping dogs lie. maybe next annual i'll have it gone thru.

hope to see everyone at columbia this weekend! :D

blue skies,
vic & N522A
 
Lynn:

The aircraft is just dandy. I'm not however, at least for now, until I finish my treatments for Hep C. It worked - killing all those viruses and such - but I have to stay on it until the end of September. Side effects are nasty. When I was performing the initial test flights of my 14-19 after the annual and engine major I got tired very easily, missed a checklist item on landing (the prop - not the gear), and decided to ground myself for now.

Thank goodness my buddy Russell came to my rescue and ferried my Bellanca from Texas to the Seattle area (Snohomish, WA) where I'm now staying. The engine burns no oil, makes book numbers in climb, and cruises within a knot or two of his 14-19-2.

Vic:

I paid a hefty fee for Dick Pifer to rebuild mine and it never worked. Dick is a great guy, gave it his best, and has had satisified customers. Problem was that the previous owner tried fixing it himself. Given how hard Dick worked on it, I can only surmise that it was damaged in a manner that was difficult to detect.

As I probably said, up topic. I ended up buying one from a parts plane and it has worked just fine. 1400 bucks is a good price for rebuilding one of these. I had to pay a grand for the picked for parts one and I consider it a bargain.

These final genuine, New Castle, Bellanca Cruisemasters are quickly becoming a vanishing breed. The marketplace seems to hate pre-Viking Bellancas. and shows little love even for them. Thus, as it was in my case, you can spend all manner of money to bring an original 14-19 into top condition only to find that neither the market nor the Bellanca community perceive any added value for doing so. Most simply convert them to -2s.

It matters to me, and that's more than enough. As an aside, you'll note I used the word "spend" to describe the money I put into the ship. It gives me a grin whenever I see ads for airplanes where the owner refers to all the dough he's poured into the airplane as "invested."

Sorry I won't see you at Columbia this year. Russell offered me a ride in his -2, plus he's bringing Dan Cullman along. I didn't want to show up feeling like crap. Plus next I can show up feeling just fine and do so in my aircraft :)

Jonathan
 
Jonathan, I kind of suspected you might be in some rough water as I missed your great forum inputs. I wish I was closer to you guys but I'm on the right coast. You are 100% right about our old Bellancas they like their owners are a dwindling breed. I owned a Cherokee 140 for 20 years and loved the Tri Tail since the day I saw it and watched it fly. I was 11 years old now I'm 60 and I finally have my own. In my minds eye I'm in that plane I'm 11 years old! Priceless. Take care of yourself and we will meet someday and compare our planes, just like two 11 year old kids. LYNN :lol:
 
You too, Lynn!? Strangest damned thing, isn't it? There you are one day, minding your own business in our small but cunning aviation world....then you see a Cruisair or a Cruisemaster. What the!? I must possess one...must...have....one. The fella next to remarks that they look ugly. It's okay; that guy's broken :)

Jonathan
 
guys!

thanks for all the info. sorry to hear you're feeling under the weather, jonathan. hope things heal up quickly for you. :D

finally got to meet russ williams and dan cullman this weekend at columbia. nice bunch of folks, these bellanca types. got a lot of guidance and counseling on cooling issues, the hydro pak and lots of other interesting tech topics.

in fact, jonathan, your posting about the rarity of the delaware triple tails is rather timely. i talked at length this weekend with al pontius who is going to try converting an O-435-A engine to O-320 cylinders. you'd end up with an "O-480" with 8:1 compression and roughly 230hp. and cylinders you could actually get parts for!! :D makes me strongly re-consider the O-470 conversion. now all i have to do is solve the high CHTs on the engine i've got. it'd be great to be able to keep the "cheshire cat" cowl

jon, i gather you're back up in the snohomish area. too bad, next week i'm going to pick up a stinson in south texas to ferry out here to california. i was hoping we might hook up.

well, keep in touch!

blue skies to all,
vic & N522A
 
Hey Vic!

Al was the guy who sold me the power pack. Whenever I call him and get his wife or someone else I say, "I request an audience with Emperor Pontius." After the usual dead air, followed the suspicious querry for my name, I simply say I'm a Bellanca guy. "Oh! Okay, just a moment..."

Jonathan
 
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