8KCAB aerobatics

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madmick

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hello, i'm looking for a reference for entry speeds for aerobatic manoeovres in the Decathlon. i am shortly travelling from one side of Australia to the other to fly an aeros sequence, and have never been in a Decathlon, so some 1st hand advice may help keep me on the straight and narrow (and inside the box). I'm told that these aircraft can be little "heavy" in the roll and that two hands are better for this! i have about 350hours in taildraggers, mainly British (chipmunks, Tiger Moths) as well as 350plus in Cessnas and am looking forward to the Bellanca challenge!
Would anyone point me in the direction to look, please?
 
Not sure why I can't use BBCode ... my profile says it's on. Here's the URL again, without the BBCode on the ends:

http://members.tripod.com/~aerobaticman/decathlon.htm
 
thank you _54ed, the second link worked and i now have some more numbers to crunch! looking forward to it!
 
Glad to help. And I don't think the Decathlon is heavy in the roll. The Citabria has that reputation, but the D has a different control system. I've flown acro in 3 different Decathlons, and never felt a need to use two hands on the stick. The roll rate is slow compared to more competitive acro aircraft like a Pitts, but certainly good enough for training and entry-level competition.

I don't think you will find the Decathlon to be a challenge at all. It's easy to take off, easy to land, and easy to fly. No bad flight characteristics that I know of. Stalls are benign. The D loves to spin when you tell it to, but recovers easily in almost all modes. Most maneuvers can be executed cleanly with 3 to 4 G's at well below Vne. It's an excellent trainer and you will enjoy flying it.
 
madmick said:
hello, i'm looking for a reference for entry speeds for aerobatic manoeovres in the Decathlon. i am shortly travelling from one side of Australia to the other to fly an aeros sequence, and have never been in a Decathlon, so some 1st hand advice may help keep me on the straight and narrow (and inside the box). I'm told that these aircraft can be little "heavy" in the roll and that two hands are better for this! i have about 350hours in taildraggers, mainly British (chipmunks, Tiger Moths) as well as 350plus in Cessnas and am looking forward to the Bellanca challenge!
Would anyone point me in the direction to look, please?
Click to expand...
I guess that you're flying in ALACS. Last year, Gerry from WA came over, did a checkout in my Decathlon and flew it - did OK but there are some competitors who treat it seriously and do a lot of practice.
The rumour about being heavy on the ailerons may come about because not all Decathlons have the aileron spades.
Taking my assumption a bit further - you're flying the Australian Sportsman sequence?
http://www.aerobaticsaustralia.com.au/dloads/2004sportsman_B.gif
If you've got a 150 hp fixed pitch aeroplane here's my advice:
Start the first manoeuvre (the loop) at about 130 kts to give you 120 kts entry speed for the second figure, hold the down line (keep the 1/2 roll centred) to give you:
125 kts for the roll off the top
spin - to recover, lead with rudder 60 deg before desired exit heading then pop the stick forward and it'll stop right there
entry speed for stall turn is not critical but - pullup from 105 kts but you'll have more after the spin - 115 kts is good, hit the rudder going through 50 kts; a bit of down line after the 1/4 roll will give plenty of speed for the next figure -
125 to 130 kts will make the 1/2 reverse cuban look good
on to #10, the final one, a slow roll - I like 105 kts but you can roll at a slower entry speed - accelerate what you can out of the turns; so when you're out practicing, try the rolls at speeds down to 85 kts.

I can send you more info by email if you like - or give me a phone call.
 
djpacro said:
madmick said:
hello, i'm looking for a reference for entry speeds for aerobatic manoeovres in the Decathlon. i am shortly travelling from one side of Australia to the other to fly an aeros sequence, and have never been in a Decathlon, so some 1st hand advice may help keep me on the straight and narrow (and inside the box). I'm told that these aircraft can be little "heavy" in the roll and that two hands are better for this! i have about 350hours in taildraggers, mainly British (chipmunks, Tiger Moths) as well as 350plus in Cessnas and am looking forward to the Bellanca challenge!
Would anyone point me in the direction to look, please?
Click to expand...
I guess that you're flying in ALACS. Last year, Gerry from WA came over, did a checkout in my Decathlon and flew it - did OK but there are some competitors who treat it seriously and do a lot of practice.
The rumour about being heavy on the ailerons may come about because not all Decathlons have the aileron spades.
Taking my assumption a bit further - you're flying the Australian Sportsman sequence?
http://www.aerobaticsaustralia.com.au/dloads/2004sportsman_B.gif
If you've got a 150 hp fixed pitch aeroplane here's my advice:
Start the first manoeuvre (the loop) at about 130 kts to give you 120 kts entry speed for the second figure, hold the down line (keep the 1/2 roll centred) to give you:
125 kts for the roll off the top
spin - to recover, lead with rudder 60 deg before desired exit heading then pop the stick forward and it'll stop right there
entry speed for stall turn is not critical but - pullup from 105 kts but you'll have more after the spin - 115 kts is good, hit the rudder going through 50 kts; a bit of down line after the 1/4 roll will give plenty of speed for the next figure -
125 to 130 kts will make the 1/2 reverse cuban look good
on to #10, the final one, a slow roll - I like 105 kts but you can roll at a slower entry speed - accelerate what you can out of the turns; so when you're out practicing, try the rolls at speeds down to 85 kts.

I can send you more info by email if you like - or give me a phone call.
Click to expand...

thanks dave. jerry and i well aquainted, his Chippie is in dry dock at the moment with some important AD's getting sorted. Yes to all the above, regarding the sequence. If you email me your phone/contact number i'll give you a call before departing. Just got my 1500ft ticket today....only taken ten years! look froward to hearing from you......regards Mick Harcourt
 
madmick said:
thanks Dave. Jerry and i well aquainted, his Chippie is in dry dock at the moment with some important AD's getting sorted. Yes to all the above, regarding the sequence. If you email me your phone/contact number I'll give you a call before departing. Just got my 1500ft ticket today....only taken ten years! look forward to hearing from you......regards Mick Harcourt
Click to expand...
Mick - go to http://www.ozaeros.com and send me a message from there.

PS - my Decathlon has been in dry dock for the last 9 months - nearly finished. Its being done by the master of Chippie rebuilders at Tocumwal. He's just finished a rebuild - a/c has about 250 hrs TT.
http://www.airplanecards.com/gallery/djpacr/000_0141
 
_54Ed said:
Question from a yank: what's a 1500 foot ticket? How do you qualify for it?
Click to expand...
Perhaps Mick will tell how he got his (he's the opposite end of the country from me). I've taken some people through to that stage recently. The test form is online at
http://www.casa.gov.au/manuals/regulate/fcl/form1055.pdf
There's the knowledge requirement done verbally. To tick off boxes in the form I start with warm-up figures, recovery from vertical (to avoid a tailslide) then a sequence at about Sportsman level. I wouldn't do an inverted spin for this level.
BUT, before I start the process I ensure the right attitude.
 
in reply to_54Ed.....Dave is quite right in his explanation: Australian aerobatic ratings are in the main, a 3000ft recovery height.
For lower levels, i had to demonstrate an ability for individual manoeuvres, then linked, as well as unusal attitude recovery (all above 3000). start again at (approx)2500 and dont break through 1500. its an over simplified explaination, but near enough. Then a question / answer time on such subjects as G-LOC, rolling G lilmitations, physiological effects of certain manoeuvres, physical and mental well being, fatigue, etc. Hope that helps
I did all this in a C152 aerobat!
 
Ah Ok, thanks. So you can fly acro above 3000 ft without any special approval. To fly below 3000 ft, you need a checkride. The checkout specifies your new minimum altitude. Getting a checkride down to 1500 ft allows you to compete in the box.

Can the checkout be given by any CFI, or is there some special qualification or certification for that?

We don't really have anything similar in the US. When I started flying acro, I was surprised at the lack of controls and restrictions. Anyone can fly acro above 1500 ft. Below 1500 ft, you must be in an approved aerobatic box, or have an airshow low-level waiver. The airshow low-level waiver does require a checkout.

If you want to see some of the results, go to the NTSB accident database at http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp and do a search for fatal aerobatic accidents. A very high proportion of them involve low altitude acro by people with no business doing so. It's amazing how many idiots can't resist the urge to buzz their hangar inverted or do a hammerhead right after takeoff. Of course regulations won't prevent stupidity.

 
There's specific training and a logbook endorsement by an instructor (in Australia the C in CFI means Chief - of the flying school) before doing solo aerobatics.

The checkride for approval below 3000 ft is by specific test officers and the authorization is given by CASA. i.e. it's all like the USA's airshow waiver system.

Also, we generally don't use parachutes except for serious solo aerobatics. One advantage is that I can take a student in an Aerobat or Decathlon and still carry fuel within the allowable maximum weight. But that's the subject for a whole separate debate.
 
News travels quickly!

Thanks Dave, and thanks to all for your help.

What an unforgettably fantastic aeroplane the Decathlon is.........and user friendly too!

Thank you again.
 
Wow, congrats. Very impressive to do so well in an airplane you haven't trained in before.

I'm not surprised you liked the Decathlon. I liked it so much I bought one.

So did you think the controls were heavy in the roll?
 
thanks ...ed.... i have to say that had the opposition been a triffle more dilligent, i may not have been in the position i'm in, however, i was there, i did it and got the laurels!
The Decathlon i flew had the mass balances and was as light as...no vices, like a stable, wide, Super Cub! (hope that doesnt offend anyone because its meant to be a compliment!).........
 
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