Another question about A&P rates

M

mtbowhunter

New member
I purchased a '76 7GCBC last summer and when I took it in for a scheduled oil change the A&P at the local FBO found metal on the oil screen. A more thorough investigation revealed the need for a MOH. The engine was removed, crated and sent out for the overhaul. It was returned last month and remounted by the same local A&P at the FBO.

When I received the bill from the local FBO it charged for the full oil change (the one where the metal was found). It seems a little backwards to perform a complete oil change and then check the screens afterwards. When I inquired of the A&P about it, he said that was standard. Not being overly mechanically inclined I wanted to see what others thought before questioning him further.

Also, he charged 40 hours of labor to remove and re-install the engine (that does not include the oil change nor the inspection where the need for the MOH was discovered). This is substantially higher than he estimated. Does that sound like a lot of hours for removing and reinstalling the engine. It's a 4 cylinder Lycoming 150 hp.

Anu input will be greatly appreciated.

Joe in MT.
 
What probably happened was, he drained the oil and refilled the sump before checking the screen , probably even run the engine. He was probably thinking the screens would be fine. I would say he could have probably added the cost of the oil change a better way and it would not have "hurt so bad". As for the time to R&R the engine there are a lot of variables to consider, such as did he have to replace baffles, mufflers, overhaul mags just a lot of things. Lycoming has a flat rate chart that you could look at, 40 hrs does seem like a lot but anyway that's the way it goes. Most mechanic's you find are probably charging by the actual # of hrs they work on the plane, which can be good or bad.


Woodie
N29763
 
Woodie:

Thanks for the info. I know he did not have to replace the baffles or overhaul mags, but am not sure what his effort was regarding the muffler. To a layman, it still seems like his oil changing system is a little backwards. Anyway, thanks again.

Joe.
 
mtbowhunter said:
Woodie:

Thanks for the info. I know he did not have to replace the baffles or overhaul mags, but ..............Joe.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...


They might have removed the baffles, mags, exhaust, carb and ....
reinstalling, timing, run-in and paper work does take time, the rate
is also a factor.

Hope you now have a airframe and engine that gives you alot of trouble free flying. That will make it worth the cost

Mikek
 
He might have dumped the oil, checked the screen, removed the engine, and after re-mounting the engine, put the oil in it. This would be the same as the oil change, just with fresh "container".

Matt
 
Matt:

What you suggest would make sense to me. Unfortunately, that isn't what he did. He completed the oil change, then checked the screen, which revealed the metal that led to the investigation that resulted in the overhaul. He then dumped the freshly changed oil and removed the engine for the overhaul. After the overhaul he refilled the overhauled engine with mineral oil for the break-in.

It's a moot issue now because I've taken my lumps and paid the bill (which includes a charge for 8 quarts of oil that were never used).

Thanks.

Joe in MT.
 
Well, it was just a thought. But, who the hell cleans the screen as the last part of an oil change? That should come right arter the old oil is dumped.

Matt
 
Matt:

I agree with your intuition. Although I paid the bill, I did talk with the owner of the FBO and explained my reservations about the order in which the work was performed. Thanks for you input.

Joe in MT.
 
In the Lycoming labor allowance sheet they list 20 hours for removal and installation of a normally aspirated 4 cylinder engine. That's only for removal and replacement of the entire engine assembly. If the mechanic had to remove mags, ignition harnesses, exhaust, starter and generator it's up to 34 hours. That still doesn't include removal of the cowling and prop, baffles, crating, cleaning and inspection of firewall, engine mount, controls, wiring and certainly doesn't take into account the inevitable frozen hardware and other unforseen trouble areas that can burn up alot of the mechanics time.

I get this all the time from owners where their jaw drops at the bill and sometimes I have to have a talk with them and say 'look pal, your airplane is 40 years old. I didn't break it, I don't set the price on parts for it and I'm not gonna work on it as charity' There are many owners who simply cannot afford an airplane. They let the upkeep slide and eventually you have an expensive pile of junk that isn't safe to fly.

I'm not accusing you of this Joe, just airing a point. I really wouldn't sweat the cost of an extra 8 qts of oil. Perhaps the mechanic erred in not finding the metal sooner but he did find it and you're a lot better off (and safer) now because of that.
 
I'm starting to help my youngest son get ready to do mechanic work. If you take a mechanic charging 40.00 an hr there's a lot that has to come out of that that the owner of the plane dosen't realize, federal income tax, and social security take a "big chunk" to start with. Now does your A&P have liability check the price of that!!!!! He has to pay for a hanger in some cases, one of the mechanic's here was paying 500 a month for a hanger he just moved to another airport because of that. Let's don't forget the "dead beats" that are going to stick you with that repair job, just to make and example_ this guy shows up to get his plane he forgets his check book, his rides already left he finaly talks you into letting him take the plane and he'll be back tomorrow to payup,WELL tomorrow never comes. Now you have to take this guy to small claims court and in some cases ever higher to try and collect your money, so what if your kids are hungry or need shoes. Let's also don't forget the time the mechanic get's used for a reference book, you know you have worked on airplanes all day you can't wait to get home and talk to someone on the phone about airplanes!! Then you have the materials you don't see on the bill such as the cleaning solvent used to wash your parts or to clean your engine, the oil dry to dry up that oil where your plane has dripped on the hanger floor over night " what airplanes have oil leaks". Just making a point that your mechanic is probably not making a killing even if he's charging 60 an hr and clearing 40. Besides that what's he worth on a dark night over bad terrain"all "you have heard those noises that engine makes during this time,you see lights finally in the far distance, then finally your looking at those two "beautiful" rows of lights and finally that slight yelp of the mains as they touch the runway. Good piloting skills helped get you there but without that overpaid mechanic the story could be a lot different.


Woodie
N29763
 
Thank you everyone for all of your replies. I am relatively new to airplane ownership and it is good to hear everyone's perspective.
As I mentioned earlier, I have paid the FBO for all the mechanic's charges and had a healthy conversation with both the mechanic and the owner. I know understand the charges better and they understand the reasons for my surprise.

What I would suggest to everyone reading this who is a mechanic charging for his or her work, is that a clear conversation occur, up front, about how much work is involved, and how much the charge is likely to be, or even possibly could be. That did not happen in my case and, combined with my ignorance of the process, resulted in the sticker shock effect. Thanks again everyone.

Joe in MT.
 
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