Can Paint Be Removed From Fabric?

Jonathan Baron

Jonathan Baron

New member
It's nothing that needs immediate attention, but my Cruisemaster's horizontal stabilizer has good fabric, but has received coat of perhaps the wrong sort of paint for fabric. It's cracking. Folks I know say that it's not possible to remove paint from fabric covered aircraft. However, those of you reading this may well have differing insights.

I'd truly welcome your advice :)

Jonathan
 
Hey Jonathan: I dug through my shop but can't find the can of stripper I bought some years ago from an ad in Trade-a-plane. (which my last copy of was used for fire starter) It is a thinner based product with wax disolved into it. The wax floats to the surface keeping the thinner from evaporating rapidly. Makes the paint soft so you can scrape it off. You can scrape the paint off one layer at a time until you get down to silver, sand the silver , and repaint/dope. It is a horrible, cantankerous, messy, smelly, brain cell destroying process, but I have had sucess with it. Ken
 
I love your description of the process, Ken. It applies to so many situations in life :)

Thanks! As I said up-topic, I'm going to get plenty of air under my Cruisemaster's wings during the upcoming flying season and attend to the finer points when next the season of drizzle and gloom arrives in the Pacific Northwest :roll:

Jonathan
 
Depends a lot on what kind of paint is on the plane.

If it is Butyrate dope, Randolph makes a rejuvenator product that goes right on the old dope. Gets rid of a lot of cracks.

There is a similar product for Poly-Tone finishes, too.

If the plane has PolyTone, the finish might be removed by the PolyTone reducer. There is no problem with taking the finish off down to the fabric and redoing it, as the various components (PolyBrush and PolyTone) are designed to work together in this manner. This is often done for patches. How well this works for larger surfaces is questionable.

If the tail is Ceconite with Nitrate dope initial layer with Butyrate dope over that, then you would have a whole different set of problems. As I understand it, nitrate adheres to the fabric well, but not to Butyrate. Butyrate adheres to the Nitrate well, but not directly to fabric. Therefore, Nitrate is used for the initial layers directly to the fabric, then Butyrate goes on top of the Nitrate.

The problem is that you have to get down to the bare fabric using Butyrate reducer, as Nitrate Reducer does not work well on the Butyrate outer layers. When you are done, you are left with some Butyrate residue in the fabric voids. This is not good when the new Nitrate layer is applied to the old fabric - you have spotty adhesion problems.

This is not usually a problem when applying patches, but may not do well on larger surfaces.

I did this technique with the Randolph process on my Cruisemaster tail surfaces for my project. Initially, it looked pretty good but eventually, just sitting in the workshop, I had blisters pop up and wound up recovering the tail feathers.

Dave
 
If it is not too big and area you might as well bite the bullet and get out the 400 wet and dry Jonathan, and be careful and patient and careful. (Oh, did I say careful!?) You can sand Imron off, and reshoot it. I have had Imron on mine since mid 80s, and it really isn't too bad...just heavy! oh well, ... different strokes...? Hmm, in your case, it is going to be a lot of strokes!!

I know that a lot of people bitch about it on fabric planes, but in the beginning, even Dupont wasn't opposed to using it on them. Sure is easy to shoot too. Looks good too.
 
It looks great, Larry, and I'm planning to just fly fly fly the airplane for a season until season's end. Then I plan to do some stuff. To heck with orange peel, or rough edged feathering of paint. Bugs will do worse :)

Bones, I poured through the latest Trade-A-Plane and all their ads for every aircraft but ours, along with absurdly low priced overhauls, avionics miracles, devices and goo of all sorts that, as snake oil, promise cures for whatever ails your airplane. No paint remover, no paint remover with wax (Sincerely is Greek, BTW, for "without wax".....maybe wax meant bullshit to the Greeks but I have too much useless information in my wee brain). As I said, though, this is not for now.

Ever notice how TAP goes back in time to the MAP - Minimum Advertised Price, a practice so uncompetitive that it makes useless copies of all these avionics ads....yeah, like I need avionics. I'm certain things get real when you talk to shops, but all my airplane needs is wind over its wings :)

Jonathan
 
Sorry, I neglected to thank you, Dave, for your comprehensive answer to my question. I appreciate it.

Larry - I think I now understand, based on your post, how the EW of my airplane went from 1654lbs to a patriotic 1776 after he painted the entire aircraft with Imron :roll:

Jonathan
 
Interesting that Imron is heavy. How much heavier and how many gallons?

BTW, 40 years ago I saw a Bellanca in Louisville that had varnished wings. Fuselage was yellow and white, with matching accent stripes. To this day I consider it one of the most beautiful planes I've ever seen. Anybody know if one could use some modern varnish today?
 
I seem to recall someone mentioning he tried to go with varnish but was reeeeeejected by the Feds (please conceal your astonishment). :)

Jonathan
 
If it was certified with fabric on the wings, then the Feds will want fabric on the wings.

Anything else probably requires an STC. Even Ceconite and PolyFiber require STCs to be used on the airplane in place of the original fabric covering type. I imaging an STC could be obtained for no fabric, if you wanted to go through the trouble.

Fabric does give an added layer of protection from the elements, though. It at least covers the top surface of the wing tanks, where water is most likely to get inside the wing.

It is really a shame to cover those wings, though.

I have seen a couple of new wings at the Bellanca factory before they got covered, and those mahogany wings are really incredibly beautiful. Looking at them was almost like a religious experience.

Alas, after 50 years or so and several recoverings, the wings on my Cruisemaster project are not nearly so attractive.

Dave
 
I don't have a bunch of Bellanca documents. I would like to see the one that says covering is required. I'm not saying it is not but I would like to see where it is written since it is not a structural part of the wing. It is protection, part of the paint system. The covering will not keep anymore water out of the wing then a good paint job. After all it does not cover the inspection openings. It is not listed in the TC as required.

Kevin
 
Have you ever seen what rain does to wood at 150 mph. I had a wood prop leave the plane after I got caught in a bad rain. :lol: :lol: :D
 
Jonathan,
Once you are inclined to begin this project, consider this product to remove the Imron- DeKote stripper, available from Eastwood Company (http://www.eastwoodco.com) a major supplier of auto restoration goodies. Granted, it's slower than methyl chloride based stuff, but it will not attack polyester resins (gelcoats etc) or SMC, an automotive plastic used on exterior trim. Just my opinion, but it should remove what you want removed, and give you control to stop the process once you get the Imron off.

I wonder if the painter used a proper flex additive in the Imron. If you don't have any cracking issues anywhere else on the airframe, and just on the tailfeathers, it could be an airflow induced vibration problem of the fabric surfaces somewhere- otherwise known as 'drumming' that could cause the cracks in a heavy coat of paint, especially if the flex additive was not used for some reason.

Years ago we refinished our 1939 Waco ARE in Alumigrip white with Imron red and blue stripes, and due to proper formulation and application, it performed flawlessly.
 
Thanks, Dave!

The Ceconite (sp) was applied to my aircraft in 1969 and is in splendid shape. Hence my relucatance to apply a knife to it. It's oddly fast for its type and horsepower - another reason to keep the knife at bay. The Imron has performed quite well, as you noted in your example.

We always have the now mixed with the future regarding our airplanes. If we don't fly them NOW, there is no future, except for projects yearning for the now. Two philosophis battle: perfect later or better now. The latter, apart from rotting spars, enginges that have sat for twenty years, or other airworthiness elements are the way to go....and go, and go.

This is what airplanes were meant to do, after all.

Later we can do all sorts of things.

Jonathan
 
If you have enamel paint over the dope that is cracked down to the surface of the fabric, the only thing you can do is remove all the damaged the enamel down to the fabric in the whole area. For small areas, just peel the paint down to bare fabric with a putty knife (an artist palette knife is MUCH better as it has rounded edges). With very thick paint coatings I have sometimes seen that high pressure air blown under the edge can lift sections free from the fabric after you start it with a putty knife (not always unfortunately). If there are larger areas you CAN use paint stripper. ALL solvent based (methylene chloride, etc.) strippers have a wax component to "seal" the solvents in so they do not evaporate and can cut the paint. More modern "solvent free" strippers CAN use caustic chemicals and I would be hesitant to use them on an aircraft as the residues might cause corrosion.

It is correct that nitrate will not adhere to butyrate but you do not have to use nitrate on fabric that is being repaired if it was already covered as the nitrate is used as a "primer" on the bare fabric when it its first covered. The reason is that the butyrate dope will not adhere to bare Ceconite but it will to nitrate. The nitrate primer actually encapsulates the Ceconite fibers (as butyrate will not) and the butyrate dissolves into the nitrate. This means that you do not have to apply nitrate dope to the bare fabric for the repair (it's already been primed when it was first covered), but you DO need to apply clear butyrate, then 3 coats of butyrate with aluminum powder added for UV protection.

The butyrate thinner CAN cause any enamel not stripped from the surface to blister if you paint over it with dope. Butyrate is like lacquer. What I do is strip the enamel that is damaged. Then "feather" the edges with sandpaper (be sure not to sand into the fabric fibers. If you find that you are having blistering problems when painting over the feathered enamel edges there ARE special primers that can be used over enamel to protect it from the aggressive lacquer type thinners (just go to the hardware store and tell them you need lacquer primer for use over enamel).


FOR THIN CRACKS IN ENAMEL I have experimented in sealing these cracks with cyanoacrylate (super glue). This will seal the crack and glue the enamel edges together. Sand and repeat as necessary. After the crack is glued and the raise edges of the cracked enamel is sanded smooth, just repair with enamel like you would a scratched car!! So far this looks like it works GREAT.


BTW, I have been working with fabric for 35 years and am on my fourth Bellanca!!

Tim
 
Wow, Tim! Thanks :) Happy to have you aboard this vessel.

My chief concern concerns the future. My last recover was in '69 but it's ceconite and is in great shape. Problem is that it has so many coats of paint that the empty weight of my 14-19 is 1776 pounds. I figure each coat weighs between 40-50 pounds, not to mention that it was last painted with a most unsuitable paint for fabric: Imron.

I looks great. It was in the 1996 Aviation Legands Calendar and it looks the same today. But at some point I have to make it mine, meaning those slanted N numbers on the fuselage have to go, the numbers on the wing have to be added, and the little touches I've never loved have to be peeled away. Not now, not a year from now, but someday. My approach to this, serious problem aside, is fly fly fly and leave enhancements for later.

Again, welcome to our forum!

Jonathan

Jonathan
 
The only real concern on an aircraft with 40 year old fabric (other than heavy paint buildup) ;-} is the fact that a lot of structure (both wood AND chrome moly) has been hidden away for all that time and may be deteriorated and not easily detected!! I know of a Taylorcraft that the whole tail wheel ( and rear of the fuselage!!)fell of "cause the longeron tubing rusted away under that fabric (due to blocked drain holes and water buildup)

Ceconite IS considered a "lifetime" fabric by the FAA. You do not even need to have it "punched" at annual (yes, some A&P's will argue with you, but that's what the FAA says) If you DO have any doubt of the fabric, the only approved test for Ceconite is a tear test which requires a strip of fabric to be removed and tested for tear strength. The ONLY way Ceconite will deteriorate is from UV exposure (keep cracked paint areas sealed to protect bare fabric from exposure to sunlight) AND from sulfuric acid fumes. Unfortunately, the catalytic converters in new cars SPEW out sulfuric acid fumes (that rotten egg smell is hydrogen sulfide). So, in areas of high traffic like LA the air fumes can slowly affect Polyester fabric. To check the distribution of this acid fumepolution after the converters became common the LA highway department actually exposed strips of polyester fabric in test boxes near the freeways and the fabric rotted away!!

As long as the paint finish is intact and protects the fabric you do not need to recover, but deteriorated paint that allow moisture and sunlight to attack the fabric and interior parts is cause for a recover. I actually think that it's a good thing to strip the covering of "occasonally" just to check all that "inside stuff" out!! :-}
 
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