Cost of Ownership/Flying

glennhake

glennhake

New member
Well, my plane is snowed in the hangar again, and I'm a bit bored. I decided to take what action I can during the lull to increase flying activity in general. I decided cost is the biggest barrier. I notice EAA, AOPA and other alphabet groups finally feeling a growing concern about the shrinking general aviation industry. To me the answer is simple. Costs. Flight activity is primarily price elastic. If aviation cost as much when I started as it does now I might not be here.

I just compared what I just paid to overhaul my engine with the $8300 it would have cost 20 years ago. I found my engine overhaul costs increase 60% greater than the consumer price index. I paid $10/hr solo and an additional $7/hr for the instructor when I got my private in 1969. My private conservatively cost $725 for the less than the 50 hours it took to obtain the license. That calculates to about $4200 in 2010 dollars. The average time to license today is 75 hours (50% more effort), and depending on who you want to believe the cost is $6000-$10,000, a 50%-100+% increase in real dollars. I don’t know any business that has expanded customer base when real costs increase over 50% and effort to achieve a product (private license hours) increase by 50%.

What drives the increase in flight times? Prices of most other products have dropped in real dollars with increased utility. I do not completely understand why maintenance costs have increased by over 50% in real dollars which drives the cost of learning to fly by over 50% in real dollars. Why did the cost of maintaining my 1950 era engine increase by 50% in real dollars? What is your opinion? What can be done to get costs in line?
 
Glenn you opened the box and let all the Demons out. Cost is a big part but I feel it is all the Govt. BS that really holds back. There are plenty of people my age driving their expensive cars and they don't have to get a medical to drive it. If they did every politican ex lawyer that passed that law would be tared and feathered. I would bet that if you could get a Cessna 150 or Cherokee 140 and a PVT license same as a drivers license there would be many more ACTIVE pilots. Now the LSA and Rec pilot are the Govt way of a coverup. There should be no reason a C150 @ 15K shouldn't be an LSA. The first thing any Govt agency does is protect itself you the consumer are second. I feel the little guy is done in aviation not only can he not afford it but with all the BS in getting and keeping a license he is overwhelmed. Back to my Govt. in our FSDO there is ONE aircraft owner and less than 1/4 of the employees have a pilots license and less than that even use it. The majority have no license for anything. Yet these are the people that are here to help you. Bureaucrats! Lord help us if you make a mistake all the red tape etc. I sense that the EAA is finally getting into the fight and the AOPA is still more the ruling elite. All afraid to make waves and lose money. Unfortunately we are not as big and as powerful as the NRA. Now these guys know how to put up a fight and buy a Senator or Congressman to protect their rights. Now if Obama and everyone in Congress had to live with the dam rules they made we wouldn't have this crisis. I can just picture Obama going thru a TSA checkpoint shouting you touch my jewels and your fired! They make the law but don't have to live by them because they are what the papers call the ruling elite. Ok close the box it was my turn. Lynn who still flies his crate :x
 
I gave up my Cruisemaster many moons ago to build an RV-4 and avoid the FAA. I say avoid because you can't get rid of them entirely.
I'm a slow builder, and would have been better off keeping the 14-19-2, but what is...is. Maybe I'll build a Sonex when I need to drop back to LSA. I hope to fly for a long time. Maybe an LSA Champ?
Now my son Peter has a 1966 Cruisemaster, and I'm excited for him. But the 100 Low Lead is expensive, and the certified engine overhaul + FAA annual have added a lot of cost to the plane. Still, it's cheaper than a Cessna 182 and gives much bigger grins.
Peter has never flown in a Bellanca before, he's buying it on faith. I have confidence that he won't be dissapointed.
It should be together and in annual around Christmas.
What a present! :D
 
Addendum: Saturday clear very cold. Lots of BSers out but nobody heating up their planes. I dropped the question that is now out of the box. The answers are too cold, too much trouble and too much money. Ok how about access? There was not one person under 50 yrs old and a big fence all around the place with a code to get in. There is another Govt. mandate and of course the Edgar Synder scare (we'll get money for you advertising lawyer). So if I was a kid today going ahead many generations and loved airplanes. I would have a very hard time getting close to a pvt plane and let alone getting a ride in one. It's dead and we killed it. I pulled the crate out and went flying! Lynn voicing again :) :)
 
Based on your and others input, this is close to what I'll be submitting to journals, organizations and and anyone else who will listen in an attempt to achieve action. I would appreciate more comments.



I read with interest various comments on the GI bill, high student dropout rates, access, and effective flight instructors. However, cost is the "Primary Reason for Decline in General Aviation Pilot Population".

Cost examples below are 2010 Dollars using CPI.
• In 1969 it costs $4104 to get a private license
• In 2010 it costs $6000- $10,000 to get a private license
• In 1989 cost to overhaul a Continental O-470 was $14,213
• In 2010 cost to overhaul a Continental O-470 was $23,000
Note that there are no safety benefits, increase in TBO, or other technical improvements for the 60% real costs increase in obtaining a license or engine overhaul.

Hassle Factor:
• In 1969 average time to solo was 10 hours
• In 2010 average time to solo was 25 hours

• In 1969 average time to private license was 50 hours
• In 2010 average time to private license was 75 hours
There is no measurable safety improvement, gain in utility caused by the increased hours to solo or private.

Probable reasons for increased costs:
• FAA regulations and mandates
• US Federal government taxes
• US Federal Government regulations and mandates (Such as EPA requirements)
• Local government regulations and increased taxes or fees and cost of compliance
• Product Liability direct costs
• Defensive liability practices
• International Political Influence though organizations such as ICAO

Recipe for Reviving General Aviation:
• Insists that Cost/Value ratios return to 1970 levels, now there is no return for the over 50% real cost increase
• Reduce government intrusion and regulation into our industry, it has proven only to increase costs, cause general decline of aviation, and not add value. The industry has tried working with or compromising with the government and the FAA, the result is an obvious failure for general aviation and most other businesses where government has intruded
• Find a way to change product liability exposure. It has had no effect on safety and only increases costs. We have the same problem the medical community has with the practice of defensive medicine and product liability.
• Make general aviation work for us. Why cares about 600 kg (1320 lbs) or let ICAO policies creep into our industry? We are the only significant market in the world.
 
Hey Glenn, I just checked your Forum subject has had 108 views and just 2 responses. Whats that tell you about the dying pilot / aircraft owner population? :cry: Lynn
 
Yeah Lynn – the passion and leadership exhibited while grass roots aviation and freedom to fly is strangled by regulation and cost is pathetic. Aviation is being forced to be a forte of only the most fortunate, which is already its false image judging by sleaze like me that hangs out at our airport. I think grass roots flying is close to the end if we don’t take responsibility for it ourselves. Maybe I’m nuts thinking this little group should make a difference, but I’m willing to work to that end. Our size has already been reduced by 30%; I wonder how much of a wake-up called we need. The industry and government does not care they are killing grass roots aviation; so it’s going to take a grass roots action to solve this – if we people are willing! :D

If we could get that flame started perhaps a small group of us could advocate the club/grass roots aviation at alphabet groups, government, etc. to reduce costs.

Merry Christmas everyone!
 
The only reason I am in the air today instead of dreaming on the ground is substatial donations from my parents. I could only afford to fly if the airplane and flight instructor were free. I just had to buy gas. Without this support and gift I would not be here today.
Thanks Mom and Dad
Peter
 
I agree with Dan, we are preaching to the choir here, but Glenn has a point. If we don't do something, then we can only blame ourselves. So, what do we do? Well, it is apparent that we don't make enough noise. If you don't want to get active at your airport, then write letters or at the very least, email you state and federal representatives. Get active. We are a small number, but LOUD gets heard. If it is a local issue, then go to the public meetings. DON"T scream or threaten officials. Believe me, they have heard it before, and being human, then will only react negatively. Come with positive solutions, that is what they need to hear.

I have seen how aviation works in many other countries, and while we all like to bitch about it, we have it made. I know of NO OTHER place in the world that has our level of freedom when it comes to aviation. It is so easy for us blame the lawyers and regulators, but remember what Pogo said -" We have met the enemy, and he is us!". The lawyers react to a market, be responsible for your acts, and the ambulance chasers loose their market. Don't like the way someone represents you, then write them a brief, logical letter explaining in the most nicest :) ?? of terms why you are not happy with what they have done. You can always follow up with a last letter, explaining why you do not believe that they are representing your interests and that you will have to vote against them in the next election. Not happy with what you get, then work for their opponent in the next election. Here in Oregon, we recall elected officials regularly. Don't like a proposed new regulation - then write a response when the proposed rule is published. Is is pretty rare that rules are published without a public notice time for the regulation. You can even usually comment on emergency AD's. The agencies will respond to your letter.

So, will any of that reduce the cost of flying, or alleviate new regulations? Not sure if it will, but you can bet that if we don't do something, it will only get worse. That is the nature of societies as they mature (that's a nice way of saying for getting old and decrepit). Just look at Europe.

Doesn't democracy mean that we also have a personal responsibility to make it work? With that, I will get off my soap box, and wish you all a MERRY CHRISTMAS and a HAPPY, HEALTHY NEW YEAR.

Larry
PS- No, I am not a lawyer, regulator or elected official, but have 40 plus years seeing how the system works!
 
Ok, I'll add my two cents worth. A number of years ago when I lived in South Dakota, we vacationed in DC and I had made an appointment to visit Tom Daschel our Senator. Sen. Daschel told us that if he received as few as fifteen letters on a particular bill, he considered that a mandate from his constituants. Population wise, South Dakota is a small state but I was blown away to hear that as few a fifteen letters would be considered a mandate. So regardless of where you live, if you and a few friends write in support of, or appose a bill, it doesn't take too many to make a difference in how they vote. At least that is the way it used to be...now I think they look to see how the other party is voting and take the opposite side. :(
Gary
 
Washington State considered adding an annual excise tax of 5% of the value of aircraft. We sent lots of mail to our State reps and senators. We got responses that indicated the tax monies were needed, so, although we oppose it, this or that rep favored and would vote for the tax. We wrote a lot of emails explaining the damage such a tax would have on General Aviation, and the negative revenue it would cause. All this while the bill changed names and was handed back and forth between houses. Then at the end, after being recycled, renamed, and resubmitted a number of times, it was dropped from the revenue bill. It was rumored that a few large employers opposed the tax and indicated they would take their companies out of state if it passed? Sometimes we do all pull together, and it works.
 
Got a note back from Poberenzy saying he's getting the ridiculous cost increase message loud and clear and would reflect that in this month editorial and future EAA policy. I continue my crusade.
 
?? By LWFORD >>"There is another Govt. mandate and of course the Edgar Synder scare (we'll get money for you advertising lawyer)."

Who/What is the Edgar Snyder [sic] scare?
 
Jeffw: Edgar is one of those dreaded lawyer firms that advertise TV, billboards and newspapers to get people to sue. He makes his bucks by settling out of court and the pr--- gets 60% of the take. He loves aviation and ambulances. I need say no more. Everybody in Western PA, Northern WVA, eastern OH knows and jokes Edgar Snyder. The latest "How cold is it?" It is so cold I saw Edgar Snyder with his hands in his own pocket! I'm sure you have such a firm in your town. :evil: Lynn
 
Like shooting a corpse, fuel price went from $4.30 to $4.80 a 50 cent increase in just a week. I must say this is the cheap place to buy! Its dead and we are just killing a corpse. Thanks to OPEC and Bush wars we are being priced out of the GA game. Lynn put the crate in a museum :x
 
No one has mentioned the EPA here.
With the demise of 100LL, the gov't is supposedly looking for a direct replacement. My guess is $10/ gal replacement even if they go 100 No Lead (most likely IMO).
Another obstacle- motor swaps. If I could easily and inexpensively install something that runs off Jet A, then the 100LL crisis would be moot. Once again though- COST :!:
The REAL question is, what will GA look like in the future if this trend continues :?:

My guesses are rather pessimistic I'm afraid:

1) Fuel over $10/ gal
2) LSA will choke on itself ($100,000+ for a LSA) and die. You get tired of just going around the pattern doing circuits and bumps. Once in a while you really want to GO SOMEWHERE but not at 85 KIA.
3) The only GA aircraft flying will be those used for initial flight instruction leading to Commercial/ ATP ratings and the uber-rich. Maybe some sort of gov't subsidy for Bush Pilots.
4) The demise of the pilot pool from the Military. UAVs will be the norm eliminating hands-on piloting.
5) User fees finally jammed down GA's throat once you get the active pilot population down enough for them to no longer be a political threat.
6) Middle class "disposable" income will be eaten by day-to-day living and health care.
7) Retirement age will be non-existant for the middle class. No retirement- no time to fly. I see no way of retiring myself presently.
8 ) The general demise of the GA fleet will drive maintenance cost out of sight. Parts inventory at a GA FBO will become too expensive to maintain. Everything will have to be ordered. The bird sits while Aircraft Spruce of China scrounges the parts from various overseas suppliers. FBOs will close. More airports turned into apartment housing, country clubs, etc.
I'm sure there's more, but I'm too depressed to think... :(
 
I believe our old "Frankies" will still burn the 87 leaded gasoline that is used in the collector muscle cars. We have at least two and maybe three stations in town that sell it. I intend to use it.
Gary
 
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