Engine Retrofit

dtreid said:
Can a Franklin 6A-335-B be made to fit into a 14-13-3 without too much difficulty?
Click to expand...
I could be wrong, but I believe there is not much difference with the 165. I looked at the specs recently when that Ebay 335 was posted here. I think it has the narrow mount, unlike the 350 series Frank, so it will fit the Bellanca mount. The accessory case was different, prop gov, different prop flange also.

So, probably an easy swap basically, but maybe some detail that would be a problem.

If you are experimental, building a 165 with 8 or 8.5:1 pistons would make a difference and increase you mileage, too. There may be some helicopter pistons around that would do it, or certain off-the-shelf aftermarket Chevy big block pistons would be fun to try.
r
 
There is another thread about the 180 Franklin in Cruisairs. There used to be an STC to do it, but like most Cruisair STCs, it is no longer available. I dont know if it is the B model, or the B1 model, but it drops right into the motor mount, but it sits about 7/8 inch higher, so you have to drop down the carb zone, trim the baffling, and adjust the cowl for the slightly higher thrust line. The crank is also an inch longer, so there is a gap between the spinner and the nose bowl. I havent seen it, but a friend who worked on a 180 powered Cruisair, said that the fuel pump rubbed against the motor mount. That cant be good. I think the early 180s had a different fuel pump that didnt have interference. I have a 220 Franklin mount for a Cruisair that is wider to fit the more modern case mounting brackets, but when they built the mount , they didnt lower the bed to keep the cowl, thrust line, baffling the same as the 150. I had dreams of putting a 220 into my Cruisair, but after a number of talks with the feds, I decided not to beat my head against the wall. It is too bad that the 180 is unavailable, since I think it could be the ideal engine for a Cruisair, or a 220 with 8.5 pistons which becomes (I believe) a 205 HP. The 220 has 10.5-1 pistons, which I think is too high for reliability. _______Grant.
 
I just re-read this thread, and actually the mounting brackets that bolt onto the side of the 180 case or 220 case are interchangable. The 180 brackets came in two versions, wide, and narrow, while as far as I know the 220 only came with the wider legs/brackets. A 220 with the narrow brackets would drop right into a 150 mount. The problem with that is that Bruce Kown told me that in his many years of doing Franklin work, he had only seen one set of the narrow brackets. You cant install what you cant find. ______Grant.
 
The "B" and "B1A" have the wider mounts which WILL NOT bolt up to a stock Bellanca mount. A "B1" will. All the 350 series have the same mounts as the "B." The Debs STC never specified which model to use. The most common is a "B," which was the Cessna conversion engine and Sport 6 as well.
How do I know this??? I have several 6A-335Bs, one of which is in my Cruisair. I also maintained the family Maule M4-220C for quite a few years. I started all these projects and studies when Franklin was still in business and I could walk into Sacramento Sky Ranch, a full stocking Franklin Distributor, for whatever new parts I needed. Time goes very quickly.........
Lots of entertainment value here.
Dan
 
Thanks Grant and Dan for the chocked-full-of-facts reports. A good future reference. I can't imagine how to get this info without guys like you around.

r
 
I did research all the Franklin TCDS's and the only 180 hp listed is the 6A-335-B(). I thought the later series 6a-350 Polish engines had a 180 hp lower compression ratio variation , but the only ones shown now in the TCDS are all 10.5:1, 100 octane and vary in power from 220 to 205 hp for no obvious reason.
Anyway, thinking of putting a $30k vaporware engine in a $15k relic is, as was said, good entertainment. I do have most of a 165 to play with as I inspect and get my adequate 150 Franklin going. The idea of an engine upgrade does lurk in the background though.
r
 
Ronm, I clearly remember a 350 ci Franklin in the TC that had 8.5-1 compression, and I thought it was 205HP. The other engine they listed was the Cessna version which was listed as 215 HP. As far as I know, the 215 was identical to the 220 except for the intake system sitting lower to clear something in a Cessna. I dont often disagree with Dan, since he is light years ahead of me in knowledge, but I am sitting here looking at the Debs STC, and it does specify the 6A-335-B. That could very easily be an FAA screw up, because if you look through the FAA records, every Cruisair that I know of that has a 180 in it, is listed as a 6V-335. So much for accuracy of the FAA. Sitting here gets me in trouble, I just ran across a copy of the PZL specs, and it lists the 350 with the 10.5-1 compression as 205 HP. I dont have a copy of the American TC to see if there is a difference. Now that I have confused myself, I think I will have another cup of coffee, and do some work around here. _______Grant.
 
I checked my STC from Debs, s/n 007, and it does specify the "B" engine. It has been a while since I looked at that file and I will stand corrected.
However, my "B" engine did not mount up to the stock Bellanca engine mount as modified per Debs' Aircraft. As I recall from the 1974 installation, the dimensions, side to side, of the engine brackets were a total of 3/4" wider than the mount. We fabricated new brackets to match the mount. The Van de Water
approval on N6520N used a "B1" engine and did not have dimensional disparity.
My Romec fuel pump was mounted on the former vacuum pump pad...and was not close to any part of the engine mount.
 
Grant,
Aircooled/Franklin listed many engines that had TCs that never saw production. Many different engines of the same basic design, but very different characteristics were TC'ed at the same time and only one saw production.
Dan
 
I just went and measured my 220 mount compared to a 150 mount, and they had widened it by about 3/4, or 7/8 of an inch which makes sense since the legs that bolt on to the case are just that much wider on the 220. I talked to Susan years ago about the narrow mounting legs, and she said that she had never even seen them. My 220 mount came out of a Cruisair that flew with the 220,(I was told) but never was approved. I used to be in contact with a fellow (Allen Barone, not sure of the spelling) in Socal that also had a Cruisair with a 220, but could never get it approved. I suspect he may have flown west by now. I wonder if any of the Debs Aero approved 180s are actually 220s. There probably are not 10 IAs in the country that could tell the difference. Enough for now. _____Grant.
 
Since it 105 degrees outside, I decided to spend the day inside, in front of the fan. I am probably boring people by now, but I went ahead and dug out my 180 parts list, which shows the different parts for the B engine as opposed to the B1. Dan is absolutely correct in saying that the B wont drop into a 150 motor mount. The parts list shows the same mounting legs/brackets as the 220, which are wider. The B1 shows different part numbers which I assume are the narrow legs. The Debs Aero STC is incorrect, or the FAA screwed up and left the 1 off of the paper work. Hey Dan! do you know who ended up with Frank Cottens 180 powered Cruisair? It must have been the wide mounts because it had the later alternator that was belt driven. It must have only had 10 or 15 hours on it when he quit flying. I dont remember the N number. It was a rough plane, but very clean under the cowl. ______Grant.
 
I never knew him or the plane. Without an "N" number, it would be hard to find. The 180 that sold in the Lancaster, CA. area came out of a Cruisair. N74488.
Dan
 
Frank lived on a mountain just out of Oregon City, Oregon, with his own grass runway. I visited him about 10 years ago, and a year or 2 after, he said he was recovering from bladder cancer, and he never answered my mail after that. I have only learned computers in the last 10 years or so, and didnt have any idea how much information could be obtained from N numbers, so I didnt often write them down. Maybe if someone has one of the old club telephone lists, it would show Francis Cotten, and the N number of his plane. It was shown as his up until a year or so ago, so some body probably bought it. He also had a 14-19 with motor mount for a larger engine, and several Aeromatics sitting on his hanger floor. He also bought a Comanche 250 and did a gear up with it. I think that is when he quit flying. It is tough getting old. _____Grant.
 
Thanks Bob, I just looked it up and the registration has been canceled. What a shame, it was a freshly overhauled 180, and had hydraulic gear, and a few other goodies. A couple of years ago, I saw an add in Barnstormers for land with a runway in Oregon City, and it looked like Franks place. I would bet the engine is in a Stinson now. I think that a 180 is easy to get approved in a Stinson. This thread has got me off of my duff, and made me sit down this morning and send the FAA renewal forms for a couple of basket cases that I have. I will never finish them, but I can sell them with good paperwork, which is better than letting them disappear. OH WELL! _____Grant.
 
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