A buddy of mine with a Citabria was overdue for his BFR and wanted me to fly back seat for him while he brushed up before his flight with a CFI the next day (I fly a Citabria also). We flew around for about and hour and took turns shooting touch-n-goes. Afterwards he questioned whether I could log PIC from the back seat (I'm not a CFI). I said I didn't think the FAR's specified what seat the PIC needs to be in whether tandem seat aircraft or side-by-side. I looked on line a little and so far haven't found anything that clarifies this. To take the question one step further, would it be legal to put a non-pilot in the front seat? What say you?
PIC from rear seat?
- Thread starter 69GCBC
- Start date
shouldhunt
New member
Flight instructors get PIC time when in the back seat and someone is working on there private. Im teaching my son to fly with me in the back seat him in the front, he will not get the PIC time. Seat should not matter.
Terry
Terry
A
Anonymous
Guest
If you are not a CFI both of you may not log the time, as the flight does not require a 2 man crew. If your friend was not current on his BFR he is not allowed to act as PIC. So only you may log the time. Also your insurance company would not pay as he is in violation of FAR's. A ramp check could get dicey... You might consider your abilities to recover from an inadvertant manuver while acting as an (adhock) instructor. Quick Fact: if you look at the stall/spin fatal accident data you will note that most of the flights had an instructor on board.
John
Former FAA Aviation Safety Counselor
John
Former FAA Aviation Safety Counselor
Hi John,
Why would a ramp check get dicey? With two people in the airplane, the pilot is not solo. The only restriction I know of is "Solo from the Front Seat Only".
If the person in front was a pilot, or was not a pilot would make no difference. I often fly with my non-pilot kids in the front seat, and wouldn't think twice about a ramp check. One reason I like the lighter person up front is to bring the CG somewhere near the mid-range. With my 7ECA and me in the front seat solo with more than about 15 gal of fuel, I am out of the forward limit.
Now, whether or not the person in the back is competent to act as pic is more a commonsense thing vs legality.
As for logging the time in the above example, if the friend still had a current BFR, why not split the time? If he wasn't current, well, the backseater would get it all.
That's my take on it!
Bill
Why would a ramp check get dicey? With two people in the airplane, the pilot is not solo. The only restriction I know of is "Solo from the Front Seat Only".
If the person in front was a pilot, or was not a pilot would make no difference. I often fly with my non-pilot kids in the front seat, and wouldn't think twice about a ramp check. One reason I like the lighter person up front is to bring the CG somewhere near the mid-range. With my 7ECA and me in the front seat solo with more than about 15 gal of fuel, I am out of the forward limit.
Now, whether or not the person in the back is competent to act as pic is more a commonsense thing vs legality.
As for logging the time in the above example, if the friend still had a current BFR, why not split the time? If he wasn't current, well, the backseater would get it all.
That's my take on it!
Bill
as far as i know, the FAA could care less if you are in the front,back,left or right seat of an airplane. as long as you are competent to fly from the seat you are in. as long as the aircraft does not specify PIC seating, it matters not. if solo in a tandem aircraft it MUST be flown from the placarded seat. as most are aware,CUBS "solo from rear seat only". as for the insurance, if you were listed on his policy,or meet the open pilot warrenty of his policy,and could show compentency flying from the back seat then the aircraft owner would be covered. most if not all policies reserve the right to subrogate the PIC,if they are not listed on the policy,even if they meet OPW requirements. i would not sweat a ramp check either. as long as the proper documents are on board,and on your person,i find it hard to believe an inspector would hassle you. (i would suggest you not mention the part about playing the roll of an instructor) as CFII-MEI with advanced ground ratings, i can't remember ever seeing an FAR that specifies seating arrangements for a 2 place GA aircraft. if you were the only pilot current in the aircraft at the time this flight took place, or for the time you were the "sole manipulater of the controls" it can be logged as PIC. one thing i have done several times for the guys that like to fly both front and rear, is to check them out in the back seat.(trust me,they earn the endorsement) then place an endorsement in their logbooks that reads"flight checked,and found compentent to act as PIC from the rear seat in a (type goes here). don't know if that is necessary, but it at least shows the FAA and the ins or anyone else who might care, that they took the time to get the training.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hey Guys,
My post was not intended to be a threat. I have done ramp checks and safety checks on both civilian and USAF pilots. It is not hard to spot the flights with issues. When asked "who's the PIC?" and both pilots get the "deer in the headlights" look... Whell you bget the point.
But my main concern is safety. I have most likely read too many accident reports and such. The Vellette Study (1993 "Re-examination of Stall/Spin Prevention Training.") 98% of CFI's noted that their formal spin training consisted of no ground instruction and a mere two spins-one in each direction. The Carpenter Study (March 2005) still showed that of 1300 CFI's, 56% has had less than one hour of ground instruction and 36% had preformed four or fewer spins prior to their spin endorsement. With a non CFI acting as a check airman your chances of inadvertant spin recovery are grim. I personally will not do stall/spins with a non-aerobatic CFI. Cfiiguy is correct on all his statements. It should be noted that while the owner could be covered in an accident if the insurance company can find no issues, he now has a ding on his record, higher insurance rates and is at risk for false reporting (if he falsely reports himself as acting PIC).
Just be carefull out there!
Thanks,
John
My post was not intended to be a threat. I have done ramp checks and safety checks on both civilian and USAF pilots. It is not hard to spot the flights with issues. When asked "who's the PIC?" and both pilots get the "deer in the headlights" look... Whell you bget the point.
But my main concern is safety. I have most likely read too many accident reports and such. The Vellette Study (1993 "Re-examination of Stall/Spin Prevention Training.") 98% of CFI's noted that their formal spin training consisted of no ground instruction and a mere two spins-one in each direction. The Carpenter Study (March 2005) still showed that of 1300 CFI's, 56% has had less than one hour of ground instruction and 36% had preformed four or fewer spins prior to their spin endorsement. With a non CFI acting as a check airman your chances of inadvertant spin recovery are grim. I personally will not do stall/spins with a non-aerobatic CFI. Cfiiguy is correct on all his statements. It should be noted that while the owner could be covered in an accident if the insurance company can find no issues, he now has a ding on his record, higher insurance rates and is at risk for false reporting (if he falsely reports himself as acting PIC).
Just be carefull out there!
Thanks,
John
The rest of the story- I finally decided to call my carrier, AVEMCO and just put the question to them about flying from the back seat of my '69 7GCBC with a non-pilot up front. And I clarified that I was not a CFI. The gal said she didn't think there was a problem but if I would hold for a minute she would double check with her supervisor. She came back on line shortly and to my surprise she said they do not care where the P.I.C. is in the aircraft and that she would make a note of that on my policy should there ever be a question!
My buddy has a '65 7ECA that we also fly. He has me on his insurance policy so that I can be P.I.C. So I went ahead and called his carrier, AOPA, and they said they had to check with their underwriter, AIG and would get back to me. A few minutes later I got an e-mail saying they were o.k. with it also! I wish I had just called these guys before posting my original question but it's nice to know that it's completely legal to fly from the back seat if you feel competent.
I should mention that I have flown many, many times from the rear seat with a qualified tail dragger pilot in the front seat. I would not recommend this to anyone that hasn't done the same.
-69GCBC
My buddy has a '65 7ECA that we also fly. He has me on his insurance policy so that I can be P.I.C. So I went ahead and called his carrier, AOPA, and they said they had to check with their underwriter, AIG and would get back to me. A few minutes later I got an e-mail saying they were o.k. with it also! I wish I had just called these guys before posting my original question but it's nice to know that it's completely legal to fly from the back seat if you feel competent.
I should mention that I have flown many, many times from the rear seat with a qualified tail dragger pilot in the front seat. I would not recommend this to anyone that hasn't done the same.
-69GCBC
mike newall
New member
We are similar over this side of the pond.
If I take folks flying in a Champ or Citabria, I always put them in the front - I brief them about where the switches and things are and they get a much better view and first flight experience.
I actually prefer doing aeros from the back seat - you get a better line up with the trailing edge and seem closer to the centre of the aeroplane.
Yes, you do have to stretch to change the radio and altimeter but with a good brief, the passenger can do that for you - everything else is in easy reach.
If I take folks flying in a Champ or Citabria, I always put them in the front - I brief them about where the switches and things are and they get a much better view and first flight experience.
I actually prefer doing aeros from the back seat - you get a better line up with the trailing edge and seem closer to the centre of the aeroplane.
Yes, you do have to stretch to change the radio and altimeter but with a good brief, the passenger can do that for you - everything else is in easy reach.