Repainting an old airplane
- Thread starter dtreid
- Start date
SoCalPlaneDoc
New member
original as in cotton or linen?
honestly, I'd recover it. Never yet seen a repaint that wasn't obviously an attempt to "Make Do"
honestly, I'd recover it. Never yet seen a repaint that wasn't obviously an attempt to "Make Do"
Gary Brink
New member
Having just completed completely stripping and recovering my 1413-2, I can tell you that it is an expensive labor of love. I would want to know what type of fabric is on the plane because if it is cotton, it definitely needs to be replaced. I agree that you will have the nicest looking bird if you recover the whole thing but after having done it, I honestly would explore any and all alternatives before I start stripping fabric off of the plane.
Gary
Gary
blimpy
New member
Yeah... what they said ! :roll:
No old bellanca can possibly be airworthy or made to be, with the factory fabric.
Cotton or Linen ( flax) it is Ro TT en.
Now, with ceconite, even ceconite applied in 1965 like mine, it is a different story,
IF it has always been hangered, and not otherwise compromised.
It really is a lifetime fabric.
A Dope finish is strippable, and can be "repainted" if you call dope "paint".
However.. and this is serious.
The whole process with Nitrate and Butyrate Dope is Toxic, and it is Explosive.
Damn nasty to work with and also very pricey and labor intensive.
Urethane paints basically aren't strippable.
--
I think the smart thing to do is realize that you have to recover.
Next smart thing is look into Stitts.. .which maybe less toxic ( I know nothing about stitts.. not one thing ).
Next thing is forget about flying this new bird for what may becomes YEARS, unless you hire the work out.
Guy who sold me my first airplane and gave me my first lesson ( when dinosaurs were common) told me this:
Half of the wings that come off for recover never fly again.
If not done in 6 months... the odds of it being never are almost 100 %.
And the story for a fuselage is worse.
...
I think that if fabric is truly sound... it is stupid to do anything except Re-paint or Re-dope,
if it's needed.
The results ( of a re-paint) are entirely dependent on Who does it, and what they know how to do.
--
Me, I'm putting lipstick on a pig, because it's good enough for who it's for.
:mrgreen:
-
No old bellanca can possibly be airworthy or made to be, with the factory fabric.
Cotton or Linen ( flax) it is Ro TT en.
Now, with ceconite, even ceconite applied in 1965 like mine, it is a different story,
IF it has always been hangered, and not otherwise compromised.
It really is a lifetime fabric.
A Dope finish is strippable, and can be "repainted" if you call dope "paint".
However.. and this is serious.
The whole process with Nitrate and Butyrate Dope is Toxic, and it is Explosive.
Damn nasty to work with and also very pricey and labor intensive.
Urethane paints basically aren't strippable.
--
I think the smart thing to do is realize that you have to recover.
Next smart thing is look into Stitts.. .which maybe less toxic ( I know nothing about stitts.. not one thing ).
Next thing is forget about flying this new bird for what may becomes YEARS, unless you hire the work out.
Guy who sold me my first airplane and gave me my first lesson ( when dinosaurs were common) told me this:
Half of the wings that come off for recover never fly again.
If not done in 6 months... the odds of it being never are almost 100 %.
And the story for a fuselage is worse.
...
I think that if fabric is truly sound... it is stupid to do anything except Re-paint or Re-dope,
if it's needed.
The results ( of a re-paint) are entirely dependent on Who does it, and what they know how to do.
--
Me, I'm putting lipstick on a pig, because it's good enough for who it's for.
:mrgreen:
-
Gary Brink
New member
You are absolutely right about dope being dangerous. Part of my job on the military was recovering control panels with linen and dope. Stilts (now known as Poly Fiber, et al.) is a pleasure to work with compared with the old system. Not as dangerous but I found it to be very expensive.
Of course the present milieu seems to encourage being frighten by nearly everything. Aspartame, global cooling/warming. You name it. We DO have a lot of 90 IQ college graduates to keep busy. Consistent with that, most of the above danger talk is hyperbole. BS, if you will.
Safety rules for dope and fabric work:
!. Don't drink the dope thinner
2. Don't light the BBQ in the dope and fabric area.
ron
Safety rules for dope and fabric work:
!. Don't drink the dope thinner
2. Don't light the BBQ in the dope and fabric area.
ron
Gary Brink
New member
You forgot to mention that one should not breathe, Ron.
dtreid:"How can I tell if it is the original cotton or ceconite?"
Good question. Someone who had worked with both types of material could look at it and know what it was.
Grade A cotton fabric is basically heavy unbleached bedsheet made with high quality Pima/Egyptian cotton. Compared to Ceconite polyester, grade A has a finer weave, particularly compared to the original Ceconite 101. (friend called it burlap 101) The back side of the doped surface will have a different feel. Polyester will be a bit more slippery and even.
Having ORIGINAL intact cotton covering on the aircraft is unlikely(65+ years) but, who knows, for some reason a few may have used grade A cotton even 20 year ago to re-cover. So i suppose, it could be cotton.
Many early polyester recover jobs suffered from poor adhesion to the fabric. Butyrate dope is a disaster to use on polyester fabric. Nitrate dope is much better, but vinyl dope like Stits is by far the most reliable for adhesion. With the paint probs mentioned, this a/c may be in this poor adhesion category.
As Larry Rau said, Ceconite, Polyfiber, etc (polyester) can last a very long time. But dealing with adhesion and cracking surface conditions can eat up a lot of time even without re-covering.
ron
Good question. Someone who had worked with both types of material could look at it and know what it was.
Grade A cotton fabric is basically heavy unbleached bedsheet made with high quality Pima/Egyptian cotton. Compared to Ceconite polyester, grade A has a finer weave, particularly compared to the original Ceconite 101. (friend called it burlap 101) The back side of the doped surface will have a different feel. Polyester will be a bit more slippery and even.
Having ORIGINAL intact cotton covering on the aircraft is unlikely(65+ years) but, who knows, for some reason a few may have used grade A cotton even 20 year ago to re-cover. So i suppose, it could be cotton.
Many early polyester recover jobs suffered from poor adhesion to the fabric. Butyrate dope is a disaster to use on polyester fabric. Nitrate dope is much better, but vinyl dope like Stits is by far the most reliable for adhesion. With the paint probs mentioned, this a/c may be in this poor adhesion category.
As Larry Rau said, Ceconite, Polyfiber, etc (polyester) can last a very long time. But dealing with adhesion and cracking surface conditions can eat up a lot of time even without re-covering.
ron
SoCalPlaneDoc
New member
Ceconite has a stamp/tattoo/mark at regular intervals. Look inside the fuselage at the inside of the fabric. Looks something like this:
There's an excellent manual for Ceconite available:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/cecmanual.php?clickkey=3845
Look at your logs/records. There *should* be entries for recovering. If you can find no record, and you intend to fly it, you'll need an IA to identify/inspect. Eventually they're going to have to certify it is airworthy.
There's an excellent manual for Ceconite available:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/cecmanual.php?clickkey=3845
Look at your logs/records. There *should* be entries for recovering. If you can find no record, and you intend to fly it, you'll need an IA to identify/inspect. Eventually they're going to have to certify it is airworthy.
blimpy
New member
Absolutely ! Read the Logs !
It wouldn't be surprising to find a control surface recovered or patches made
without a logbook entry.
However nobody in his right mind would recover an airplane or even a wing,
and NOT make a log book entry !
They don't call it DOPE without reason, though ! :mrgreen:
When Cooper owned the Ceconite STC in the 60's he cautioned against " counterfeit"
ceconite. So it could be possible for someone to have saved money by using non-certified Dacron
to save money.
---
The current Ceconite STC calls for using a FIRST layer of Nitrate Dope on bare ceconite, and then following on with
Butyrate layers ( clear and silver), for the good reason that Butyrate cannot bond to Dacron.
Ron M is right. Do Not Breathe. I let a can of nitrate thinner leak in my car. Just don't !
---
Paints other than colored dope applied over dope are a nightmare.
Cracking, flaking, peeling nightmare. I am attempting to fix mine ( as have several owners before me)
which was painted with auto enamel ( too brittle can't flex over wood or fabric).
Even using epoxy under the touch up paint, I don't expect anything but more trouble.
--
The real Up Side to recovering, is that it will give you a Show Plane ( if you aren't colorblind ! )
Your plane will be the first sold, when the time comes.
The job will last another 50 years if done correctly, with modern materials.
Ignore the little inner voice that says Magenta Metallic over Day Glo Green would be "nice"
Especially if both of these colors look like shades of brown to you ! :lol:
---
Sincerely Mr. Spray Can
It wouldn't be surprising to find a control surface recovered or patches made
without a logbook entry.
However nobody in his right mind would recover an airplane or even a wing,
and NOT make a log book entry !
They don't call it DOPE without reason, though ! :mrgreen:
When Cooper owned the Ceconite STC in the 60's he cautioned against " counterfeit"
ceconite. So it could be possible for someone to have saved money by using non-certified Dacron
to save money.
---
The current Ceconite STC calls for using a FIRST layer of Nitrate Dope on bare ceconite, and then following on with
Butyrate layers ( clear and silver), for the good reason that Butyrate cannot bond to Dacron.
Ron M is right. Do Not Breathe. I let a can of nitrate thinner leak in my car. Just don't !
---
Paints other than colored dope applied over dope are a nightmare.
Cracking, flaking, peeling nightmare. I am attempting to fix mine ( as have several owners before me)
which was painted with auto enamel ( too brittle can't flex over wood or fabric).
Even using epoxy under the touch up paint, I don't expect anything but more trouble.
--
The real Up Side to recovering, is that it will give you a Show Plane ( if you aren't colorblind ! )
Your plane will be the first sold, when the time comes.
The job will last another 50 years if done correctly, with modern materials.
Ignore the little inner voice that says Magenta Metallic over Day Glo Green would be "nice"
Especially if both of these colors look like shades of brown to you ! :lol:
---
Sincerely Mr. Spray Can
