Spinning the 14-13. Really?

kitepilot

kitepilot

New member
Hello there:
I like to explore the edges of the envelope of any aircraft that I fly, unless 'model knowledgeable' people has specific reasons to NOT to even try it. For example: I seldom (if ever) drive a Piper Tomahawk near a stall.

I use an exercise (which I haven't found described anywhere) to explore how long and how bad the aircraft will hold control and how sudden it will snap on a bad situation:
I hold the joke all the way to the back power off and keep it as stable as I can (ailerons neutral!) using only the pedals, until I get bored or the thing snaps into a spin.

Depending on what I see, then I try the same thing at full power.
I haven't yet found an aircraft that I won't try (and won't snap) at full power, and some of them snap pretty dramatically. I used to do this frequently in my Super Viking and I saw more than one pilot livid after the recovery.
The Super Viking is not approved for spins.
I don't spin aircrafts that are not approved for spins, but I certainly don't mind taking them all the way to the ragged edge.
A spin is not fully developed until (at least) the third turn and, as dramatic as it looked, I always had the SV recovered within (at worst) half a turn, so technically it never went beyond the 'incipient spin' stage.

The 14-13 flies a lot like the SV and I really feel 'at home in the air' on it.

It also behaves a lot like the SV when I try that game.
I haven't found anywhere, however, whether the 14-13 is approved for spins or not (I suspect not).
Question is: Is there any official answer for the question: 'is the Bellanca 14-13 approved for spins'?

Spinning in Alaska: http://www.kitepilot.com/AK/champ-spin.mov :)
 
Look on your panel. It should be placarded against intensional spins. Read up on your type cert. there is a lot of good information.____Grant.
 
Oops...
It *IS* on the TC.
I did read the TC before and obviously overlooked it.
We also installed a new panel and the old one didn't have the placard, I'll have one made.
 
In the CAA tests for issuance of the type certificate.. the 14-13 was spun 6 times with normal recovery not an issue. this was actually a requirement for getting a type certificate.

Also, the bellanca company rather famously campainged a Viking in aerobatic demonstrations on the
airshow circuit.. with a woman aerobatic pilot, and they made this part of their sales film. I think it is on youtube.

However, if you think a half or one or one and a half or however may turns isn't a spin, then I have a nice bridge out here in San Francisco to sell you.

Whatever the reasons for the plane being placarded against spins ( and what modern plane isnt short of the citabria) I 'll bet they are good ones.(well I guess... :roll: )

However, if I somehow was stupid enough in my speed managment and coordination to inadvertantly
enter a spin... I'd simply apply normal correction and not sweat it for a second ( assuming adequate
altitude for recovery).

So, yeah the cruisaire will spin, and will recover normally - but lets dont and say we didn't. Which is a damn shame because it is such a sweet flying airplane. I will never understand how spins got put in the list of aerobatic maneuvers. It's such a stable maneuver is decent airplanes, that it used to be part of the old pilots bag of tricks for getting down through a cloud layer - pre gyro horizon days.. when even partial panel instrument skils were rare - and bailing wire wasn't.

:idea:
When I was a studen pilot I used to spin my Luscombe almost every time I flew. Now it's a big deal ?? :?: :shock: go figure.
 
Oh,, and trying to spin it out of a pull power stall sounds like a dandy way to end up on your back in a nice screaming power spiral.

A spiral aint a spin and those confused about the difference aren't likely to live to\
explain the results of thier experiment. :shock:
 
Some limitations placed on aircraft were determined by lawyers and regulations and have nothing to do with engineering or safety. Spinning is often one of them.
To be approved for spins the manufacturer has to jump though a lot of extra hoops. Most of the time they can't justify the time and expense. They'll weigh risk/benefit and decide to just placard it to manage their exposure to risk. That doesnt mean the plane isnt capable, they just don't want to be responsible of someone does it and it turns out bad - like a family seeking damages when their loved one got too slow on approach and spun it into the ground ("Hey, we put a placard on it so it's not our fault)

For the record, I am not advocating ignoring placards.

Lots of planes have demonstrated the ability to do diverge from straight and level that were never designed for them - Bob Hoover made a very nice living at it and only bent it once (I saw it). The next day he repeated his entire routine with a borrowed plane right off a dealer's lot. Remember the 707 roll? Cessna slapped a few doublers on a 152 and painted a checkerboard on it, jacked up the price and presto!
I can personally attest that a Crusiemaster does a very fine aileron roll (no, i didnt do it on purpose, got caught in a downwind mountain rotor that flipped me over.. twice! plane handled it nicely, i had to change my underwear)
Oh ya, I used to spin my Luscome too. ugly, took a turn or two to settle down but it always recovered predictably. Hard to do a decent roll, the wing is so long, but it looped nicely. Of course, it was my first plane. I was 17 and still knew little about rules, regs, placards, and risk. Heck, I never took off the with carb heat on even though there was a placard that required it in the Luscombe (that one baffled me until years later I found out why)
After subsequently owning a 7KCAB and then an S2B, I've gotten the urge to divert out of my system. I have no intentions of spinning or doing anything else but cruising in my Cruisemaster. You can do what you want of course - heck, if you crash yours mine will increase in value :D
 
I am neither spin nor bridge expert, but I had the fortune to get a personal one-on-one class on spins from Bill Kershner a few years ago. I have tried to educate myself further after that.

The spin (as relevant to us) is divided in 4 phases: Entry, Incipient, Developed and Recovery. Most aircrafts (that we have access to) will wobble and dance chaotically up to the 3rd turn of the spin. After that, the aircraft will engage in a predictable and periodic cycle of oscillations. That is know as 'Established in the spin' (or phase 3)

Some will swing nose up and down every so many turns (most high wing Cessnas), some will go flat (Tigers, Cheetahs, some Tomahawks, those are the killer ones) and some will just happily spin like a well balanced wheel (like the Champ in the video).

Any relatively modern aircraft is expected to be recoverable (unless you have a parachute) before you are fully established on the spin (phase 3).

I can't see how you can end up in a 'screaming power spiral' (even though I have seen airplanes go briefly inverted a few times) by stalling full power. For once, if you follow proper procedure, the first thing to do is to cut power. For those that don't know everything, power on the spin will tend to raise the nose, flatten the spin and render the aircraft unrecoverable from the maneuver. That's why it is *PARAMOUNT* to set the power to idle. Another *IMPORTANT* habit is to set ailerons to neutral (that's a longer explanation) which is one of the things that I am practicing with my makeshift maneuver and hopefully ingraining it in my students (not all feel comfortable with it and I don't force the issue)

As soon as the upright aircraft initiates the final unrecoverable drop in the nose, your foot is already stomping on the pedal that you need to get out. As soon as you pull the power, the nose will drop further (that's where sometimes the aircraft goes briefly inverted) and from there on, it is standard recovery: hold the opposite pedal until the rotation stops and release pressure on the elevator to lower the AOA. And you fly out nice and easy.

I ended up in an inverted spin once after I demonstrated what would be like to stall cross controlled on the turn from base to final to a stubborn student in a straight tail C-150 (best airplane I've spun! :). Got my attention, I had to improvise the recovery on the spot (nothing that I particularly enjoy, I hate surprises).
We had lottsa altitude...

For more information, please educate yourself reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_(flight)
And no, I don't *TRUST* Wikipedia either, but the information there correlates with the information referenced by NASA publications.

I'll be more than glad to fly with you and perform the maneuver so you have a better perspective of it. By the mean time, please send me a picture of the bridge. I have here some valuable Government Bonds to make the down payment.
 
My dear mr.Kite.

You misquote me.

I said - or meant to - SPIN out of a full power stall- could put you on your back.

Heck power on stall is a required flight maneuver in the PTS.

But you knew that.

Interesting post and I thank your for it.. and for your elucidation of the cause of the dreaded
Flat Spin. See I learned something.

Stay safe.

Capt. larry ( boat capt not know it all )
 
Don't worry Larry, I don't know everything either... :)
I forgot to mention that any approach to a situation leading to a spin on an aft CG aircraft is as good as making an appointment with a funeral home.
Stay out of too aft CG!
Assuming a still controllable aircraft, a too far forward CG will probably grant you a damaged firewall/nose-wheel (if you are one of those) and prop. A too aft CG will buy you stock on a crater somewhere in the planet. That generally ruins your hairdo.
And funerals are boring and expensive...
 
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