Trimming in the Flare?

Jonathan Baron

Jonathan Baron

New member
Brothers in Bellancahood:

I was reading the latest issue of AOPA Pilot - one particularly slanted to expensive stuff such as "budget buys" in NEW airplanes, "stepping up" to twins (was Avgas $1.65 when they wrote that?) and...well...it was a pretty annoying issue,

Rod Machado's column culminated the strangeness. He was advocating using trim IN THE FLARE due to the difficulty of hauling back the yoke. He flies a Cessna 210.

I wrote noting that this is a bad idea for tail wheel pilots (and all pilots IMO) because your head vision should be outside the aircraft, and your hands belong on the stick/yoke and throttle, not the trim wheel. I also thought it was an especially bad idea to glace away from your 45 degree view during the flare in aircraft that feature the disappearing forward view during the flare.

Normally when I write to him he responds with intelligeable language. This time I got a bunch of boilerplate dumped on me (Thank you for reading my article...thank you for being an AOPA member, that kind of crap) along with his noting that he'd learned in taildragers, had landing a Cessna 195, and saying there is no difference until the wheels contact the pavement...well yeah.

Do any of you guys look anywhere but outside during the flare?

Jonathan
 
Until you fly a 210 Cessna I would leave speculation and rear seat flying out. The 210's I have flown in and out of a small grass field let's you know just how heavy the nose is in the landing flare. I use to fly one model that had electric trim and you didn't have to look anywhere but out the windshield and another model that was manual and you just had to feel for the trim wheel . You can land the plane without the use of trim but I can tell you from experience that you get a much more smooth feel when you use the trim than not. What did you expect from him in his reply ? To compare the dump truck qualities of the C 210 to your Luscombe is off base IMO..
 
He did not specify the 210 in the article, Joe. He meant this as a technique suitable for all aicraft with heavy elevators. The reason I mentioned the 210 is because he mentioned he had purchased one in a previous article, not this one.

Jonathan
 
Oh, and another thing, he asked readers to present him logical arguments for when and why such a technique would be incorrect.

And I never compared the 210 to the Luscombe. Thus, I think you're way off base telling me I'm off base, based on baseless assumptions you made based on what you know I fly because my Luscombe was based where you are.

So there!

Jonathan
 
One thing I should add. Rod Machado is one of the nicest guys in aviation journalism. I did not want or mean to disparage him.

Okay, back to the question, apart from the other stuff. Do any of you guys trim during the flare? I think we've established that lardnose Cessna Trikes - especially if they have electric trim on the yoke - could use it.

Anybody fly anything else that does?

Jonathan
 
Jonathan, calm down, everything will be fine. :lol:
Here is my 2 cents. 3 for you, my cents are Cdn... :roll:
When I was flying a few time a friend"s Tiger Moth and my Bakeng Deuce for 9 years, you could not see in the front anymore on final, nevermind on flare...I was fixing a point in the intrument panel at about the horizon level in acordance with what I would see with my side vision and land. When I shifted to my Cruisair, for me it was a no brainer, as it flare, I fixed a point again in the panel in front of me and let it sink. Always greased it on. Now, for 3 points these days I am finding myself pushing my head in the head liner to try to keep looking at the end of the runway...my eyes almost sticking in the liner...bad habit.
But I alway 2 point it down, this way I have plenty of vis until the tail wheel gently touch down. After that it's the head in the liner again or zig zag...
 
Oh and about the trim, I trim full nose up on for landing to make it lighter for flare, at low speed, it does not mind the full up trim. but I do this sometime as I turn downwind to base. Never during flare. At that moment, you should not have anything left to do.
Let me memorise here..
AAAhhh ok here how I do it. A.T.P.= attitude-power-trim.
On downwind, level at circuit altitude, reduce power to drain speed, full trim up, gear down, once out of breath (36 crank turn), flaps and that's it. I think...

Alain.
 
Was having one of those maddening days, is all, Alain.

Sometimes I acquire a condition I call HDDD: Hide Density Deficiency Disorder. It skews my sense of proportion :roll:

Jonathan
 
Don't know about the 210, but I used to fly a 205. With just me in the plane or two people in the front seats and no load in the back, full up trim would not hold pitch when power came off with full flaps. That configuration took a LOT of back pressure, even with partial powe. When the power come off in the flare, it would sometimes require both hands on the yoke to heave. And, yes, it would get VERY interesting during an emergency go-around.

So, nearly all of the approaches with just one or two people in the front seats were done with no more than half flaps, pitch trim to full up, partial power approach until the flare, and then I still heaved mightily on the yoke until the mains squeaked.

The 210 probably has an electric trim button on the yoke, so no extra hand is needed to spin the trim wheel during the flare.

Very convenient, those trim buttons. Without them, I would have to agree with Jonathan - the flare is no time to be taking your hand off of the throttle to play with the trim wheel.

Dave York
 
I used to do the trim on flare trick in the 210, and my Viking. Both had electric trimmer buttons which made it very handy. In fact with both airplanes the trim rate was just about perfect for flaring and making my perfect and smooth as silk landings (hehe right).

I dont do it in the Cruisemaster because I never remember which way the crank should turn. :shock:

And I look outside the cockpit when I land, unless I have turned the trim crank the wrong way. Then I just close mey eyes..
 
After 1100 hrs of 135 in a Cessna 206 I can tell you if you are use to a full load and land empty you will know what the guy is talking about. the nose can get so heavy you wont be able to pull it up. thats what happened to me with my boss in the right seat and nothing else in the plane. I was lucky I had 13000 ft. had to add power and trim. to get it down. a C-210 aint no bellanca. but if you had to compair it would be more like a supper vicking.
 
Didn't read the Article..but I am strongly opposed to trimming in the flare. I call it fiddling if you are still trimming below five hundred feet....All that said..a poorly loaded Cessna can be a handful. and a little weight in the baggage compartment will always make the airplane very docile if you are loaded forward in the envelope..maybe beyond forward.
Many times, I have asked for the airplane during a checkout or dual instruction...Just to check the trim. It's surprising to see the out of trim situation that some pilots will fly with. A trimmed aircraft, and I'm definitly speaking of my Cruiseair, will almost land itself ...so I vote NO...1
Mike
N86744
 
I think the problem here is that we are all talking about differnt kinds of flying. I have not read the artical either but I think one should always fly with the plane trimmed but when you put full flaps in on a Cessna on short final whitch you never want to do until you are sure you have the runway made you may find the trim switch on the yoke is easy quick and not at all destracting to use and will make a much better landing. But I always say fly safe and that is usually the way you were trainded are most comfortable with. My boss at the time and check pilot showed me the trick of trim to help with the back pressure while you are in the flare and I used it almost any time I used full 40 degrees of flaps with less than a full load of pax. So I say go for it if you have electric trim on the yoke its a good way to help out your landing.
I not sure I would want to be reaching up for a 14 13s trim handle while I was trying to flare though. I just don't think you can go and give a do this or don't do this to someone with out knowing there aircraft very well.
 
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