Upgrades, Franklin Rebuild and advice needed

M

mplstim

New member
Bellanca Drivers:

Hello from Iraq. I am working outside Tikrit, Iraq for an Army project. Not being able to fly my Cruisair is driving me crazy but gives me plenty of time to make plans for upgrades and improvements. When I return this summer, I plan to turn in my plane to Webers and/or the factory for some fabric and paint work and an engine rebuild.

My 165 Franklin was last rebuilt in 1971 and topped in 1995. It has about 1100 hours SMOH and I'm thinking it best to rebuild it ASAP while parts and expertise are still around. Is Lil Red Aero still rebuilding Franklins? Are there any other shops that you know of rebuilding the Franklins?

I saw the Aeromatic Prop website and am considering a "new" Aeromatic for authenticity and a possible improvement in cruise performance. I'm currently running a McCauley metal that gives good climb performance but my cruise speeds are down around 115 Knots at 2600RPM. Do you think the investment in a new Aeromatic is worth it?? Any AD considerations?

My fuselage was recovered and painted in 1995 with Stits but as far as I can tell from the logs, the wings are still flying with cotton fabric. I plan to have the cotton stripped and go to Stits along with a new paint job for the entire plane. I've read the topic on stripping the paint from fabric and hope this can be accomplished to avoid a complete recovering of the fuse.

I'm hoping all this will keep me flying for the next 15-20 years. I thought about selling my plane and moving up to something with more modern systems but nothing comes close to the overall flying experience of a Cruisair. It will meet my needs for the next 20 years for a relatively moderate investment when you consider what a new plane goes for or even a run-of-the mill Piper/Cessna 4-seater...

Any and all advice will be appreciated.

Tim
 
Hi Tim, I thought you sold that Cruisair. Talk to Greg Lucas about your engine rebuild. I just had him redo my cylinders for a top. He is a Franklin specialist.

C. G. Lucas Co.
221 N. Pecan St.
Pauls Valley, Ok. 73075
405-268-3925

What is the length and pitch on your prop?

Kevin
 
I tried selling my Cruisair prior to my departure to Iraq but in the end it didn't sell. In retrospect, I'm glad it didn't and I now plan to stick with my Cruisair and invest some $$ in its future...

I believe the prop is 72/52 McCauley - I could be wrong on those numbers.... Great climb performance (full tanks w/2 people = 1000 FPM) but cruise was a bit less than I had hoped for with the 165hp Frank.....

Tim
 
I would expect a 72/52 would be a climb prop.
On your other question, if the Stits is painted with Poly Tone you can strip it with MEK.

Kevin
 
Hi Tim,
To Irak from Montreal, Quebec , :)
I had a wood 74X53 on my 14-13-2 165 hp. and this was considered climb prop. It's the one they put on Stinson on float with 165h.p. Frankies
But I was easily poping red line. It was a bit critical. And at 2700 I was doing 130 m.p.h.

I changed it for the one that was coming out in 1947 on the 150 h.p. as shown on Type Certificate.
The climb is lethargic in hot air but I cruise a good 155 m.p.h. indicated in cool 10-15 deg. C. with full thank anf my 230 pound. and 2550 r.p.m. when it want to get there. I think the airspeed is a bit generous but 145 is garanteed solid.
So I think it's just a little coarse. For a ride with the familly, the fine pitch one would be safer for short grass field even if I loose 25 m.p.h. Or I'd have to go 4500.00 aeromatic.

Yes, If you go with Aeromatic, after 4500.00$ You'll be happy with the performances. You will have the fine pitch prop perf. for take off and very good cruise. Best of both world. And authenticity on top of that! And you'll be suprised with the cruise in cool air! :shock:

Best regards Tim and be cafeful over there. Work safely and come back taking care of that Cruisair! :D

Alain.
 
I noticed on Barnstormers that someone is selling a 180HP Franklin. I seem to recall reading about a Cruisair that had this engine.... any opinions on this engine? anyone know what prop I can run on that?? Can I use my present mount??

Thanks

Tim
COB Speicher
Tikrit, Iraq
 
Tim,
There is a shop in Pine River, MN that also goes through Franklin engines. When I had them go through my 150 hsp, he had four 165 hsp engines on the rack ready to sell. I'll give you the specifics on how to get ahold of him if you are interested. Also, the Aeromatic props are supposed to be the best, but I was advised to send mine to
Kent Tarver to get it checked out before I even considered flying it. I sent mine to Nevada to Tarver's shop, but he told me that it would be two years before it is done. He also will sell an Aeromatic prop and I think the price is around $4,500. His web cite is: aeromatic.com.
Take care and we will see you when you get back. By the way, when are you due back?
Gary
 
Hi Tim,
There is an STC for the 180 Franklin on Cruisairs. It was originally from Jerry Deb's dad. Jerry had it for a while, and now it may be owned by Franklin Aircraft Engines Ft. Collins, CO 80524 Phone: 970-224-4404?? The STC calls for a McCauley C-21 prop, but you may also get approval for a C-22. It also called for different brakes and wheels, I think. Dan Culman has one installed on his plane, and he may be able to give you more information.
Be careful, and come home safe! Larry
 
Is the 180 Franklin was not a 165 with Helicopter piston which brought it to 180. So this engine would be an helicopter engine???

Alain.
 
It is not a helo (vertical) engine. It is the 6A-335. The STC is described on the FAA web site as:

"Installation of Franklin Engine 6A-335-B, McCauley propeller 2A31C21/84S-8 with Woodward governor 201453, and Firestone DFA-180 wheel assembly and CFA-252 brake assembly or equivalent."

Looks like it is now owned by the Franklin Engine Co in Ft. Collins, CO.
 
Upon my return from Iraq 2 weeks ago, I turned in my Cruisair for its annual. Things were going along OK until they pulled the McCauley metal prop. It turns out that the back face of the prop was badly gouged and someone attempted to re-face it and then paint it. It looked bad enough that we sent it off to a prop shop and it came back out of specs and "unserviceable".

So........ the good/bad news is I have to get a new prop... I decided to spring for a new Aeromatic from Kent Tarver. Not sure how long it will take but Kent seems like a nice guy and has indicated it won't be too long... My spinner may or may not work - anyone have a lead on an Aeromatic Spinner??

I'm hoping to see some improved cruise speeds with the Aeromatic. With the McCauley I had good climb but could only cruise around 130Mph. I think I read that this is the ideal combination on the Cruisair - Franklin 165 and Aeromatic Prop. Did someone say it may hit 160mph in cruise??

Thanks

Tim
 
Welcome back, Tim :)

It's a pity that you couldn't simply fly your Cruisair while contemplating upgrades and such. No point, though, in replacing a prop you plan to change out.

I'd defer 160mph dreams for now. Cruisairs with 180hp Franklins or the once popular 190hp O-435 conversions don't go that fast. Mike Grimes stuck a 220hp Franklin in his and he *may* see cruise numbers in that range.

This sort of thing reminds me of Luscombes. Yes, Jackie Cochran managed to set a speed for the horsepower record in an early Luscombe (120-something mph or there abouts) with an A65. A fellow named Petan got his Cruisair into the 176mph range. Both aircraft were modified: the Luscombe had everything sealed except the passenger door, and Petan modified his calculating every square milimeter of wetted area along with sealing everything.

Over time, of course, folks add horsepower and stuff. Some people stuff 150hp into Luscombes. Billy's 14-19 has a 260hp IO470, microballooned wings and such and he gets an honest 175mph. The best *flying* Luscombe, however, remains the simple 8A with 65hp, and the best flying triple tail remains the Cruisair with 150hp or 165hp. The lightness of the break-out forces, the feel of wearing the aircraft....you get most of that in a 'Master, but not all.

More power simply means more cubic inches and, thus, more weight. People like to say there is no substitute for cubic inches....but there is - the physical bond between pilot and airplane is the reason why those who never fly never fully lived. I prefer, even though I own a 'Master and a Luscombe 8E, that I get more that matters to me when I fly than I'd get in a Viking or an O200 powered Luscombe.

Check the Fly Market portion of this site. Billy has put his hot-rod 'Master up for sale at a reasonable price. If you want to go fast, it's a good deal. If you want to upgrade your Cruisair, Tim, I think an overhauled Franklin and an aeromatic is a splendid approach. Just be careful of the speed side....one you go down that path, forever it will rule your destiny :lol:

Again, it's great to have you home, safe.

Jonathan
 
Tim, that was the big advertising theme when they were building the Cruisairs...one mile per hour for each horsepower. I also received bad news from my prop. I had sent it to Kent about a year ago and he just emailed me back that the blades are shot. $3,300 for new blades
but I guess that is still better that a whole new prop.
 
Yep, Gary, and the advertised ruse..er..cruise speed when they made my 14-19 was 180mph. The only aviation journalist to call them on that at the time was Leighton Collins.

Jonathan
 
OK, this one is just too good to pass up.
I have had my Cruisair for over 16 years. It has a 150 Franklin, and I have flown it with both an Aeromatic and the present McCauley. I also have a field approved pitot tube that is dead on accurate when corrected for temp and altitude. I have verified it by both GPS and timed runs over freeway markers on a straight stretch of I-5, as verified by state highway construction maps. My speed is 130 STATUE miles per hour plus or minus 2 mph. There was actually very little difference between the Aeromatic and the McCauley. May be attributed to the greater diameter of the McC?? Lost a little in cruise and gained in climb. BUT VERY LITTLE.
I also hear great stories of 150mph Cruisairs, but every time I want to fly on wing with them, there is always some reason why we can't go now!
I do believe that the 150 hp 14-13 can be improved by greater HP, but only up to a point.
I would imagine that the ideal combination would be a 180 Lyc with a CS prop, but then I doubt you will ever get your money back out of it.
Dan Cullman told me years ago that the best combination was a 165 Franklin with an Aeromatic. Price would be right, and I bet performance is too. You also don't have to screw around with a field approval.
When I fly, I am process oriented, not goal oriented. I love the feeling of flying my Cruisair, there is no other plane like it...even you Cruismaster guys don't know what you are missing. (that should start something!!!). If I was in a hurry (and I was rich), I would be flying a Glasair III or a Lancair IV, but then I would spend less time in the air.
I would love to say I always had great insight into all this, but then shortly after I bought mine, I too was seduced by the dark side, and bought Jerry Debs STC to put a 180 Franklin into mine. Never did it though. Would be nice to have a vacuum pump and CS prop but then....$$$$$$ Think I am just going to put a 165 in mine when the time comes...maybe.
 
I am currently flying a 180 hsp Cherokee and I am certain that the
150 Cruisair will outperform it. Unfortunately, I probably still have two years before my cruisair is ready to fly.
Gary :(
 
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