Very squirlly on landing

K

kenvolk

New member
:shock: Any one out there that I can talk to about the behavior of my 1960 14-19-3 Crusemaster landing rollout. I've rebuilt all steering rods, "0" toe in/out on mains rebushed every thing and the thing sometimes just darts for the weeds with even the slightest rudder input. I have zero slop in the retract steering rods(fully extended when gear is extended)I'm used to some pretty senisitive tail wheel planes but this has them all beat!!! Right now I have 50 psi in the nose tire to reduce the footprint...am I going the wrong way with this thinking..Should I tighten the steering friction more. Pass this along and thanks for the help.. Ken@ 940-368-2835 :shock:
 
I'm a 14-19-2 guy, but Andy Vano (Chief Engineer for Bellanca) did three articles starting with the B-C Contact October 2009 issue on nosewheel maintenance and repair because loss of directional control (especially to the left) appears to be a factor in 25% of Viking landing accidents. The club can probably help if you don't have them. Around 35 PSI should be a good tire pressure with all else being correct.
 
Kenster, make sure you don't have a brake hanging up. I'm into a 1937 Spartan Executive with gear trouble. We found that the Waco people didn't put it back together right. Bad alignment and the airplane wants to go right constantly. Man that plane is big and built like a bridge! I can copy and mail you the articles Glenn mentioned if you will provide an address.
My e-mail lford1011@zoominternet.net. Press on Lynn :p
 
Ken...that is an interesting question to me. I have had the same thing happen with the only 14-19-3 that I have ever flown. very quick, and I have always wondered about it. I have a lot of tailwheel time as well.

Mike
 
:twisted: Thanks for the quick replys guys...I forgot to mention that I have all new bushings in torque links and everything is ok with the brakes. The senario is ....nice touchdown,nose held off as long as possibe (out of FEAR) nose touches and rollout ok for maybe 50 ft and then if you even slightly use any rudder to correct drift off it goes and when you try to correct it it darts just as quickly in the opposite direction . Sometimes requires the use of differential braking to get out of!! I know it's short coupled BUT... Thanks Ken @940-368-2835
 
My son Peter recently bought N8533R, in non-flying condition. While getting the engine overhauled, we took to doing the 'rest of the work'. This included removing all the lower landing gear.
The front gear 'squiriliness issue' caused us to spend some extra attention, so we looked at other Bellanca front gears, and as many pictures as possible. To our eye, it seems the front lower gear fork is manufactured with some 'trail', the axle being a little bit aft of the center of the leg. this seems to vary from plane to plane. Some have less, some have more.
I suppose it would be called 'Caster', too little and it won't tend to track straight ahead, too much and it will wooble like a bad caster on a grocery cart, set backwards it would be divergent? Peter owns a front end shop, and is aware of these things. It could be your front end geometry is a little towards the divergent end, instead of the wobble end?
What does yours look like? The gear is mounted to the engine mount, if it has been pushed up a little, like a hard landing on the nose? a slight deformation could change the rake of the front gear leg.
Did you call Alexandria LLC? We got landing gear springs and some seat rollers from them, and they were pretty helpful.
They have probably had some experience with this issue, maybe even with your plane.
Also check your log books for any reference to the gear. Accidents are usually never entered, only repairs and maintenance, so some interpretation is required.
Also, you mentioned putting high air pressure in the front tire. Did that help? did you try the normal pressure and also a low pressure? Was there any noticable difference?
 
:roll: Thanks Shipchief for the reply. I cheched my nose fork and the axle is approx 1/2" FORWARD of the extended centerline of the strut. That doesn't seem right aka backwards...it appears to be in excellent shape and I don't think it has ever been repaired. I agree with your comments and think it should be inline with the strut axis or aft. Gonna call Carroll at the factory and see what they say. I have also tightened the anti shimmy collar a small bit as I had it as loose as I could w/o shimmy and for ease of turning...going go back to 40 psi in the tire as well. Will keep you all informed. Ken :evil:
 
I don't know if it's even possible, but if the nose fork was replaced with a fork from a '76 or newer Viking with the torque link fitting on the aft side it would have to be installed 180 degrees out to fit the older aircraft, putting the axle forward of the strut centerline.......Just a thought.
 
I talked to Kevin at the factory and he told me that my fork is correct!!! Early ones were forged and later ones (mine) are welded tube and the axle is 3/4" FORWARD of the strut centerline!!! He also told me that the steering rods should be 1/4' from fully extended with rudder pedals and nose wheel in neutral. I had mine with zero space when extended and have now changed them. Allows some rudder movement before steering input. I have tightened the steering fricton collar a tiny bit and he reccomends 40 psi in the tire Will try all these things today and let you all know....Test pilot Ken
 
:? Well gang the saga continues..Adjusting the steering rods made it some what less twitchy at first as I could get some rudder input before steering but It still darts for the weeds.Tightening the steering collar was to much ...can hardly turn rt!! I have reread Andrew Vanos articles SEVERAL times and he politely states that the pre 1976nose wheel fork is ..ah...well less than stellar( BAD).I just can't believe that negative castor is right!! Later models have 3/4' rearward castor...Guess what ...if I turn mine 180 degrees I will too.SOOO I am going to weld the proper scissor fitting on the fork and try it. I will not retract the gear till I determine if this corrects the problem as the wheel will be 1 1/2 inches deeper in the well so the retract actuator stroke will have to be changed. Probably be a week before I get this accomplished...more to follow Ken :?
 
:D I have flown the plane ( 3 take offs and 3 landings on pavement,and 2 takeoff/ 2 land on grass) with the fork turned around with 3/4" trail instead of the 3/4" of forward fork arm and the difference so far is amazing! The plane no longer hunts while taxiing and it had no tendency to want to dart left or right on any of the landings. I will say that the day I chose had no crosswind, so will slowly expand that envelope. I am planning on making steering rods that will have internal compression springs that will just begin to compress with full rod extension (somewhat like Cessna steering rods) hopefully removing the 6-10 degrees of steering "null" spot.Will also need to shorten the retract stroke approx 1/16' to account for the apparent 1.5" movment of nose wheel tire further into the wheel well....more to follow ...Ken :D
 
That's very encouraging.
The opposite effect of divergent instability would be over stability. I think it would be in the form of a speed wobble, like the bad caster on a grocery cart. That's what the shimmy damper is for. I'm thinking you won't get it, I just mentioned it so you would be on the look out for it.
Keep us informed!
Scott
 
:D Will keep you informed! Am just about done with retract issues...had to make a new piston for retract cylinder that was about .090" (approx 3/32") thicker on the retract side to shorten the retract stroke due to the rearward cant of the fork. will flight test and then on to steering rods with compression springs to give some "soft" steering before rods become solid at full extension...Cheers Ken :roll:
 
:D :D :D Well, went flying in the Cruisemaster yesterday and I believe that I have reached my goal...the plane flew GREAT (like a normal nosewheel plane!) It will taxi straight ahead without any steering input with no hunting like before. On landing I cannot detect when the nosewheel touches down and in the 10 or so landings there has been no tendency to dart for the weeds!!! I even tried a couple of crosswind landings (6 knot crosswind component,..starting easy) with no excitement! I took some more of the "slop" out of the steering rods and now have about 1/16" play on each side. I am going to leave it like that till I can install rods with compression springs as mentioned earlier (That will probably be in a month). A BIG thankyou to all of you for getting me steered (yup pun) in the right direction. Cheers Ken
 
Wow Dave;
Let's just murder this thread.
Consider that tri-gear Bellancas have something of a reputation for veering on landing, and someone who has this problem is acting to increase safety of operation...potentially for all of us. And is willing to share his findings until now?
 
Ken

Keep up the good work. I have a 260 that has not flown in 15 years and is about to. I am very interested in your "repairs" and how things turn out as I am probably in the same boat. I am sure someone else has gone thru this before and did not bother to share. If they had we would have a service bulletin or forum history to search.

Peter
 
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