Wheel landing Tips for 7GCAA

T

Turfpirate

New member
I have around 90 hours in a 2003 model. Some wheel landings are great other times - not so great. Three points like a dream in most wind conditions. When wheel landing and coming in at 65-70, the angle of attack makes it seem very "artificial" you really have to force the tail up - to plant the wheels. Coming in faster - means a flatter final and more potential to bounce - especially in gusty or turbulent conditions. Any tips?
 
I probably do about 99% wheel landings. I'm not sure I can add anything to what you already know. I'd probably shoot for about 70-75 mph on short final in my Decathlon for a wheelie (when solo.) I'd increase about 5 mph with passenger. I almost always touch down on the back side of the mains. You're right about a lot of speed. It will propell you skyward if you don't grease it. One thing you might try, at your own risk of course, is to reduce the air pressure slightly on your mains. The book says 24 psi for my mains (if I recall) and I usually run about 23 psi. It doesn't sound like a lot, but I've noticed a difference. It seems a little less bouncy and a tad bit more forgiving. I certainly wouldn't want to go higher than 24.

I understand your desire to do wheel landings, but if you're nailing 3 pointers in all wind conditions, is there a reason to do a wheel landing?

Someone with more citabria experience can probably help you out more than I can as the approach speeds will be slightly different than a Decathlon. Good luck.

Jon
 
Thanks for the insite! Now that you mention it - my best wheel landings have been solo. Good point on the tire pressure - I keep 25 in the mains - may need to rethink that. I practice wheelies because everyone always tells me you need them for gusty crosswinds - which I've never had a problem three pointing. The attitude on the 7GCAA on speed is in the three point position and I can "plant it" (worst case) - wing low - without doing a true full stall landing. It seems like a true full stall landing - I usually touch the tailwheel slightly before the mains. I absolutely love flying this airplane!

Dan
 
I've got slightly higher than 24psi in my mains. I shoot for 70mph coming over the fence, and as you've said, touch down on the backside of the mains and roll it on. Patience is the key in a wheel landing, don't force it on, wait until it's ready. I also trim down while on short final, this makes it easier to relax my back pressure once I touch.

Chris
 
Like many others, most of my landings are a 3-point wheel landing. Full stall landings always result in a tailwheel first plop. Tail high wheel landings are real handy when confronted with 10+ mph gusts and simply require practice, precise timing and a feel for exactly where the mains are - easier said than done.
 
I found that good wheel landing practice conditions for my oleo geared Ctab is when there's a steady 10 or 15 kt wind blowing straight down the runway. That helps me initially to get the stick and rudder feel for the wheel landing but lets me touch down at a nice easy groundspeed. No excess pedal dancing as you bleed off speed on the rollout.
Pete
 
Turfpirate said:
Thanks for the insite! Now that you mention it - my best wheel landings have been solo. Good point on the tire pressure - I keep 25 in the mains - may need to rethink that. I practice wheelies because everyone always tells me you need them for gusty crosswinds - which I've never had a problem three pointing. The attitude on the 7GCAA on speed is in the three point position and I can "plant it" (worst case) - wing low - without doing a true full stall landing. It seems like a true full stall landing - I usually touch the tailwheel slightly before the mains. I absolutely love flying this airplane!

Dan
Click to expand...

Dan-

I learned to fly in a Cub, spent my first 2500 hours in the rear seat of a Champ instructing, this in the days that tailwheel was known as conventional gear and no sign off was required because tri-cycle gear was the exception. I fly my 7GCAA in winds that have the training wheels parked and only do wheel landings in calm winds on long smooth runways, most of us from that era are confused by the current fascination with wheel landings. Not sure why one would want to add difficulty to landing in gusty conditions by attempting a landing that was more difficult in calm conditions. I have never needed extra speed for more control effectivness at touchdown because I have never ran out of control authority, however I am always happy that I am touching down at minimum speed and stopping quickly rather that riding a 1750lb weathervane down the runway.....................

When wheel landings are discussed online no acknowledgement is made that there are so many varations of wheel landing, anything from the tailwheel 1" above the runway to a level attitude, that the discussions are of little value. At our flight school we never taught wheel landings............and we never had a groundloop or prop strike. In my flight training library, that begins with 1932 CAA Manuals and includes WWII era USAAF and USN Manuals, the first reference to wheel landings is a 1965 FAA Flight Training Handbook. My theory is that new hire training wheel experienced FAA Inspectors were having trouble with them during their Oke City checkout and decided they would be required. The tailwheel endorsement requires "Normal", "Wheel", and "Cross-wind" landings.............the message is that wheel landings aren't normal landings. And experience shows that more incidents occur during wheel landings than three-point landings, this is due to porpoising which can cause a prop strike or loss of directional control due to attempting to juggle too many things at once. In addition touching down at higher speed means more energy and a greater chance of groundloop, and more damage if one occurs.

Winds above 30-35 kts require caution while taxiing but aren't a big issue when making a three-point (actually two-point, one main and the tailwheel) touchdown. In gusty wind I get the plane in the attitude and play with it until I'm comfortable and chop the throttle and plant it, stick full aft on roll out to pin the tailwheel adding aileron rapidly as the speed bleeds off, the rollout distance is minimal. As an interesting exercise I suggest looking at aileron effectivness while parked on a windy day, both headed into the wind and downwind. And it must be noted that the spring geared aircraft ride stiffer and are much easier to taxi in windy conditions.

Tom-
 
Thanks Tom for your detailed reply - I feel much better. I have only 100 hours in conventional gear a/c - so I have much to learn yet, however, I've never had a problem with wind in any Champ, particularly my 7GCAA. There is ample control effectivness - if anything too much, it could easily be overdone.

I really enjoy the enhanced airmanship I have developed flying these airplanes - sounds like I would have really enjoyed you as an instructor.

Dan
 
Wow Dan!

I do not have the experience you do but more than most. I have around 2000 plus hours in tail wheel. I too was a little confused regarding the discussions and apparent difficulty of tail wheel landings but for different reasons than yourself. First I believe most of my landings are wheel and I really do not increase the approach speed other then to account for a gusty condition. (Add 1/2 the gust to my standard approach speed). Different to your fndings,I find the spring gear mushy compared to oleo struts. The aircraft I am compareing are: 1967 M4 Maule (very stiff), with a 1973 8KCAB and 76 7GCAA. I also had a 1969 7ECA with no bounce gear. The 7ECA was extremely stiff when taxiing. The M4 was much stiffer than the 8KCAB.

I have always believed the purpose of the wheel landing was to put the rudder further into the slip stream so as to give more rudder and directional authority as well as reduce the angle of attack and reducing your tendency to porpois. I do not believe I ever fly the aircraft onto the runway. My approaches are steep and low powered, many times requireing a slip. I also definately use the same approach for both a three point and wheel. The difference is that just at touch down I slowly move the stick forward to the wheel landing, reducing angle of attack and putting more of the rudder into the slip stream. I also have one hand on the throttle at all times for the purpose of arresting any tendancy to ground loop. Many people believe a Maule cannot be wheel landed. If this is a wheel landing, that is all I did. Interesting discussion.

Ken
 
I too have to say "Wow", reading about Dan's incredible insight! Thanks Dan, and everyone else!

My story is about Scouts, a bit different ship of course: heavier, taller, stiffer gear, etc, but still a Champ in the end. I put about 1600 hours in AK on my first Scout, bought new in 1980. I always did 3 points, NEVER thought of wheelies. Then came my 185, then a 180...and I totaled the 185 in 1992 just because I did NOT do a wheel-landing (hi-winds in ND, returning to AK from OSH...huge $$ ouch only). I then had the mandated ride w/an FAA examiner in Fairbanks...and he required wheel-landings. It changed my flying totally. Unless doing 'bush' or off-airport landings, wheelies was ALL I did for 1500 hours thereafter. I sincerely feel that having that skill on those occasions saved me from (more) embarrassment during high crosswind/pavement landings.

2 years ago I was lucky to get back to a Scout, an almost new one. I bought it from a (very impatient...and unnamed) dealer who, during my checkout, angrily told me to NEVER do wheel-landings in ANYthing! I've had this 03 in AK for well over 100 hours now...and I do wheelies whenever I can to stay in practice...like the prior post, about 99% of the time!

In summary, I am not an expert. After 3300 hours I feel simply knowing HOW to do wheel-landings is the key. Such a landing option is just that, an option! If there's doubt, another airport into the wind is probably the best choice. However, it does take time to feel comfortable pushing that stick over and keeping it there!

Having said all this, I might be all wrong and regret it 'tomorrow'! Dan's experience and calm words can't be ignored...and now it makes me think twice! Thanks!!
 
FYI-

It's really very simple, a three point landing will ALWAYS cause you to touchdown at minimum speed and with minimum energy to dissipate in the rollout, that means minimum landing distance, less wear and tear on the brakes, AND much less energy to cause trouble if you don't keep it straight on rollout.

Tom-
 
Ken-

"I have always believed the purpose of the wheel landing was to put the rudder further into the slip stream so as to give more rudder and directional authority as well as reduce the angle of attack and reducing your tendency to porpois."

While there are no doubt a few aircraft that have reduced rudder authority in a three point attitude due to a design anomaly I doubt that you can measure a difference in rudder authority in the majority of aircraft between three point and level..................................and I must ask when you have ever had reduced control authority at touchdown speed in a three point attitude. My contention has always been that this is much more an old wives tale than established fact. The old wives tale is based on one entry in a 1933 CAA manual where it is suggested that in "strong" winds it may be necessary to make a level landing and apply power, while using brakes to prevent acceleration, to increase airflow over the tail..................????????????? WOW, that's something I think I will avoid doing in a big biplane with 1933 era questionable brakes, more to the point if the wind is as strong as suggested in the 1933 manual the plane will stop after a very short rollout. And I must add that is the sole entry in any flight training manual I've collected from WWI until 1965. Conventional gear aircraft are designed to be landed in a three point attitude, the tail MUST come down at some point....................why not do so on touchdown before you become an expensive weathervane rolling down the runway with only the brakes for directional control? In a three point landing you have less speed to dissipate, and improved directional control because the aerodynamic control of the rudder is augmented by either a steerable or locking tailwheel in most cases, even in the aircraft I've flown with a non-steerable tailwheel I opted for minimum speed and made three point landings.

There are aircraft that are best wheel landed because the tail is affected by disturbed airflow in a three point attitude or because there isn't significant elevator downforce at the forward CG limit. I preferred wheel landing the Beech 18 with no fuel in the aft tanks and no passengers, however with one pax in the back or aft fuel it was a delight to three point and landing distance was dramatically reduced, in fact the official Beech manual recommended three point landings in cross winds to "reduce the chance of ground loop" because in addition to lower speed/reduced energy you had a locking tailwheel........................................and yet everyone insists wheel landings are preferred in a Beech 18???????

Accident reports confirm that wheel landings cause more porpoising accidents/incidents, and that if porpoising doesn't cause an accident the distraction may cause loss of directional control. This is not conjecture, or merely opinion, on another forum I watched a CFI promote wheel landings as the safer alternative........................ignoring the fact that the large west coast flying club he was involved with had a blanket prohibition of wheel landings due to the fact that all of their conventional gear accidents were from botched wheel landings.

Personally I like wheel landings in aircraft with stiff gear, the best is the Stearman, next is the Beech 18, I would only wheel a Cub with fresh STIFF bungees, hate wheeling an oleo gearded Champ/Citabria, but even in the Stearman, Beech 18, etc. my preferred landing is three point due to reduced landing speed/distance and the increased directional control caused by the steerable of locking tailwheel.

Tom-
 
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