Wing tip or other LED Strobes for Certified Aircraft ?
- Thread starter blimpy
- Start date
SoCalPlaneDoc
New member
They make them but I've not seen one approved.
You could ask the manufacturer to include your plane on their AML - I've had a few do that for me, including Whelen and EI.
My -3 came from the factory with an anti-collsion beacon mounted right in front of the vert stab - later it was replaced with a Whelen Strobe. Better than nothing but I live/fly in a busy area and wanted more. Whelen had the -3A on their STC AML so, I called them, explained that a -3 was a -3A with 3 vert stabs, pointed them to the TCDS and they agreed, sent me a letter certifying the install under their STC. Now I have their Comet Flash Power supply running the top strobe with an additional one on the bottom. 4 BRIGHT flashes on top, then 4 more on the bottom.. I'm turning the sky into a disco
Btw, no electrical "hash".
I wanted to install the Electronics International Fuel and Engine temp systems in my -3 and their AML listed the -3 but had the Viking TC.. They also sent me a letter authorizing me to install.
I've had good luck talking to Whelen's customer support - call them, explain your application and if they dont already have your model listed on thier AML, they may find a way for you.. Better yet, send them an email and they can research it without the pressure of coming up with an answer while you're waiting.
IIRC you have a Cruisair with a Frank? I think the big concern will be with power budget. It's true they use less trons but not that much less and if you have any kind of radios now and you throw in the demand for landing lights, there's not a lot to work with.
Weight isnt that different nor is the cost.
that being said.. I've done a bunch of LED swaps for clients (on Cessnas) - I wouldnt use LED for anti-collision.. They just dont have the attentioning-getting brilliance of a strobe.
They're OK for positions lights though and Landing/taxi - Whelen does have STCs for those that cover our models. That might help your power budget but it'll start getting expensive.
You could ask the manufacturer to include your plane on their AML - I've had a few do that for me, including Whelen and EI.
My -3 came from the factory with an anti-collsion beacon mounted right in front of the vert stab - later it was replaced with a Whelen Strobe. Better than nothing but I live/fly in a busy area and wanted more. Whelen had the -3A on their STC AML so, I called them, explained that a -3 was a -3A with 3 vert stabs, pointed them to the TCDS and they agreed, sent me a letter certifying the install under their STC. Now I have their Comet Flash Power supply running the top strobe with an additional one on the bottom. 4 BRIGHT flashes on top, then 4 more on the bottom.. I'm turning the sky into a disco
Btw, no electrical "hash". I wanted to install the Electronics International Fuel and Engine temp systems in my -3 and their AML listed the -3 but had the Viking TC.. They also sent me a letter authorizing me to install.
I've had good luck talking to Whelen's customer support - call them, explain your application and if they dont already have your model listed on thier AML, they may find a way for you.. Better yet, send them an email and they can research it without the pressure of coming up with an answer while you're waiting.
IIRC you have a Cruisair with a Frank? I think the big concern will be with power budget. It's true they use less trons but not that much less and if you have any kind of radios now and you throw in the demand for landing lights, there's not a lot to work with.
Weight isnt that different nor is the cost.
that being said.. I've done a bunch of LED swaps for clients (on Cessnas) - I wouldnt use LED for anti-collision.. They just dont have the attentioning-getting brilliance of a strobe.
They're OK for positions lights though and Landing/taxi - Whelen does have STCs for those that cover our models. That might help your power budget but it'll start getting expensive.
I've had Whelen strobes on the wingtips of my 14-19 for over six years, and haven't had a bit of radio noise from them. It's an older unit, with only two strobes. The power pack is mounted onto the tubing behind the rearseat. They do draw more amps than would an LED system, and Whelens aren't cheap compared to others, but I've never had any problems with them.
Tom Robinson
Tom Robinson
blimpy
New member
Thanks guys,
In my little world the cost of new Whelen or similar discharge tube type strobes is not possible.
Maybe used.
The current draw for continuous use isn't at all practical with the 25A generator. IMHO.
I mean, yeah I could, but not at taxi rpm.
Weight is ugly for a 150 hp bird. My experience was that the shielded cables supplied for installation
are a must ! Distributed capacitance in the cable is part of the filter . Installed one direct once.. and it was a nightmare.
My boss the "engineer" didn't believe me.. untill I showed him that the radio noise went away with the
supplied cable.
Anyway...What price visibility. Since I nearly get hit every week by some clown violating the orderly
pattern at one airport or another.. I'm not sure if I need strobes or a .50 cal. in the wing.
Too bad my -2 doesnt have the optional flares !
Larry aka blimpy
In my little world the cost of new Whelen or similar discharge tube type strobes is not possible.
Maybe used.
The current draw for continuous use isn't at all practical with the 25A generator. IMHO.
I mean, yeah I could, but not at taxi rpm.
Weight is ugly for a 150 hp bird. My experience was that the shielded cables supplied for installation
are a must ! Distributed capacitance in the cable is part of the filter . Installed one direct once.. and it was a nightmare.
My boss the "engineer" didn't believe me.. untill I showed him that the radio noise went away with the
supplied cable.
Anyway...What price visibility. Since I nearly get hit every week by some clown violating the orderly
pattern at one airport or another.. I'm not sure if I need strobes or a .50 cal. in the wing.
Too bad my -2 doesnt have the optional flares !
Larry aka blimpy
Larry Lowenkron
Member
Well Larry, you need what I have...notice my left wing leading edge(double click on the picture)...I tell people that cut me out of the pattern that it is a 20mm and they have just had their first and last chance of doing that to me!
Larry L.
Larry L.
Larry Lowenkron
Member
Are you putting them on a certified aircraft? If so...GOOD LUCK getting it past the FAA!
SoCalPlaneDoc
New member
OK, well, all you're doing is changing the bulb, and if it's truly using less current than the original, you don't need to chat with the FAA to do it. However, their website is a little vague on some important points like, are they TSO-PMA?
You will be responsible to assure they still meet the minimum lighting requirements (with appropriate docs to back it up). The website just says that they are but offer no more than that.
I'd call them and ask those questions.. certs?
More often than not the vendors targeting homebuilders/assemblers don't divulge they're not acceptable for certified aircraft - they get sales from the unsuspecting/naïve owners that way..
Of course, you can do what a lot of guys do and just put them in and hope no one official ever notices...
I still think LED "strobes" are weak and not worth the bother...
something else is weird with this.. they don't have any mention of red vs green no part number choice.. nothing.. seems like these guys need to get it together..
You will be responsible to assure they still meet the minimum lighting requirements (with appropriate docs to back it up). The website just says that they are but offer no more than that.
I'd call them and ask those questions.. certs?
More often than not the vendors targeting homebuilders/assemblers don't divulge they're not acceptable for certified aircraft - they get sales from the unsuspecting/naïve owners that way..
Of course, you can do what a lot of guys do and just put them in and hope no one official ever notices...
I still think LED "strobes" are weak and not worth the bother...
something else is weird with this.. they don't have any mention of red vs green no part number choice.. nothing.. seems like these guys need to get it together..
That LED combo is interesting. Yeah, good point. What makes one red and the other green? Strobes can be red or white but not green. , but green is not mentioned in the regs. Clear lenses?
Also, separate control of position and strobe lights is required. Never-the-less, quite intriguing. I will need something that blinks or flashes pretty soon for ser. 1077.
ron
Also, separate control of position and strobe lights is required. Never-the-less, quite intriguing. I will need something that blinks or flashes pretty soon for ser. 1077.
ron
blimpy
New member
A little walk around the AC spruce catalog shows Whelen and some others make LED strobes and combo nav/strobe
for certified AC but they are just as expensive as the old discharge tube types.
Should be easily 337'd into cruisairs... but fit is another question. Im not keen on cutting up my wingtips.
What I do see that is interesting is retrofit BULBS... which are LEDs that plug in in place of our nav light bulbs.
Some small current savings, maybe brighter.
Larry... what the heck were you trying to say.. I understood nothing .. 20mm ( cannons ? ) :?:
for certified AC but they are just as expensive as the old discharge tube types.
Should be easily 337'd into cruisairs... but fit is another question. Im not keen on cutting up my wingtips.
What I do see that is interesting is retrofit BULBS... which are LEDs that plug in in place of our nav light bulbs.
Some small current savings, maybe brighter.
Larry... what the heck were you trying to say.. I understood nothing .. 20mm ( cannons ? ) :?:
Larry Lowenkron
Member
Larry, check out the pitot tube on my left wing in the picture above. You may need to double click on the picture. Regarding installing nav/strobes...I have a 337 to install Whelen A429, which are very similar to A650s. I would like to have LED's but you're right, they are pretty spendy!
LL
LL
Regarding your intimidating pitot fashioned out of a 20mm gun barrel, LL, I like it.
Getting a good accurate reading pitot is very easy by following a few simple rule, the 1st being to make sure it is pointed forward. Good static ports are much more difficult, though, and I take it yours is a combo. I may write up my less formidable but accurate setup which has fuselage static ports ala Bonanza in another thread.
Now back to Capt Larry's plaint about lighting which is also my own.
I re-read the lighting regs and there seems to be no requirements that these old airplanes have any lighting that winks, blinks or flashes. That is, they are not required to have any anti-collision lighting for night flying. I would like some concurrence here on that point. I may have missed something.
That said, everyone wants to have a good chance of being seen by other aircraft. These are my thoughts on going in that direction on the cheap: I intend to remove the non-PMA'd '38 Packard dome light bulb in the taillight fixture and replace it with one of these new non-PMA'd LED wizzbangs mentioned above. About 10 times brighter, it flashes(or not) and less amps. While a 14-13 is no slouch speed-wise, there are a lot of fast glass and RV's driven by low time pilots out there now. So, protection from the rear by installing a very bright flashing taillight would be doing my part to not get run over. No re-wiring and less than forty bucks, I'm pumped (for an old guy that is).
Edit: Just ordered the Navstrobe BA15sWcs-5w-1156 taillight. I'll report my impressions when I receive it. The taillight unit is OK for cert aircraft according to their website. Existing wingtip position lights are PMA TSO'd? products which are so not as easy to substitute.
Getting a good accurate reading pitot is very easy by following a few simple rule, the 1st being to make sure it is pointed forward. Good static ports are much more difficult, though, and I take it yours is a combo. I may write up my less formidable but accurate setup which has fuselage static ports ala Bonanza in another thread.
Now back to Capt Larry's plaint about lighting which is also my own.
I re-read the lighting regs and there seems to be no requirements that these old airplanes have any lighting that winks, blinks or flashes. That is, they are not required to have any anti-collision lighting for night flying. I would like some concurrence here on that point. I may have missed something.
That said, everyone wants to have a good chance of being seen by other aircraft. These are my thoughts on going in that direction on the cheap: I intend to remove the non-PMA'd '38 Packard dome light bulb in the taillight fixture and replace it with one of these new non-PMA'd LED wizzbangs mentioned above. About 10 times brighter, it flashes(or not) and less amps. While a 14-13 is no slouch speed-wise, there are a lot of fast glass and RV's driven by low time pilots out there now. So, protection from the rear by installing a very bright flashing taillight would be doing my part to not get run over. No re-wiring and less than forty bucks, I'm pumped (for an old guy that is).
Edit: Just ordered the Navstrobe BA15sWcs-5w-1156 taillight. I'll report my impressions when I receive it. The taillight unit is OK for cert aircraft according to their website. Existing wingtip position lights are PMA TSO'd? products which are so not as easy to substitute.
kitepilot
New member
Larry Lowenkron said:
Hmmmmm...
From:
http://www.navstrobelighting.com/products/Aircraft-Tailfin-Navigation-Light-with-constant-%26-fast-white-strobe,-4w-1310Lm-LEDs.html
It says: 'Meets FAA AC No: 20-74 requirement'
Which is at:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/list/AC%2020-74/$FILE/AC20-74.pdf
I'll go test one as soon as Aircraft Spruce tells me they have it.
I stopped a couple of weeks ago in the Atlanta store, but they didn't know what I was talking about...
Larry Lowenkron
Member
Hi Kitepilot,
I do hope they are compliant with regs. An AC is not a regulation. I would love to get the current draw reduction that LED's provide. Please keep us informed on how it goes. Thanks! Larry
I do hope they are compliant with regs. An AC is not a regulation. I would love to get the current draw reduction that LED's provide. Please keep us informed on how it goes. Thanks! Larry
Well, yesterday I got the tail light bulb substitute LED unit I mention ordering a few days ago from Navstrobe Lighting. It looks like a tiny corn cob.
I did some preliminary tests.
At 14.0 volts, current consumption measures .16 amps steady and about .055 amps average when flashing. By comparison a standard 1156 bulb has a current draw rating of 2.1 amps @ 12.8 volts and 27 watts. So, the current draw of the LED unit is about 1.9 amps less when steady.
It seems equal or brighter than a standard tail bulb when steady and brighter when flashing. The flash pattern is 4 or 5 rapid flashes, slight pause, then repeat. Should be pretty eye catching.
Since the light is emitted from an area about 1/2 X 1 inch instead of a filament (more of a point source), there will be more light overlapping into the wingtip sector. Not sure if that will be an issue or not.
Anyway, differences in current will run my 2 electric gyros.
Ron
Opinion on LED vs flashtube supports a previous thread comment by SoCalPlaneDoc:
http://airbornelights.wordpress.com/lighting-technology/at-what-cost-will-leds-replace-flashtube-lights/
DIY LED stuff:
http://www.superbrightleds.com/cat/led-vehicle-replacement-bulbs/
I did some preliminary tests.
At 14.0 volts, current consumption measures .16 amps steady and about .055 amps average when flashing. By comparison a standard 1156 bulb has a current draw rating of 2.1 amps @ 12.8 volts and 27 watts. So, the current draw of the LED unit is about 1.9 amps less when steady.
It seems equal or brighter than a standard tail bulb when steady and brighter when flashing. The flash pattern is 4 or 5 rapid flashes, slight pause, then repeat. Should be pretty eye catching.
Since the light is emitted from an area about 1/2 X 1 inch instead of a filament (more of a point source), there will be more light overlapping into the wingtip sector. Not sure if that will be an issue or not.
Anyway, differences in current will run my 2 electric gyros.
Ron
Opinion on LED vs flashtube supports a previous thread comment by SoCalPlaneDoc:
http://airbornelights.wordpress.com/lighting-technology/at-what-cost-will-leds-replace-flashtube-lights/
DIY LED stuff:
http://www.superbrightleds.com/cat/led-vehicle-replacement-bulbs/
blimpy
New member
Ron, great info on the LED "flasher". 160 mils ( 160 ma = .16 amp) is way better than 2.1 amps !
Anybody sqawks you can carry the old bulbs in the arm rest and change in 5 minutes !
---
Larry I knew about your long pitot tube
error in my stock pitot tube is not more than 5 statute mph... at cruise.. why worry.
---
I seem to get almost run down in the pattern about every 4th time I fly... I think wing cannons might do
more than International Orange paint job. Although applying that to the wind screen of offending "pilots"
might help.
---
Thanks for all and various comments RE LED lights.
Larry ( the other one)
Anybody sqawks you can carry the old bulbs in the arm rest and change in 5 minutes !
---
Larry I knew about your long pitot tube
error in my stock pitot tube is not more than 5 statute mph... at cruise.. why worry.
---
I seem to get almost run down in the pattern about every 4th time I fly... I think wing cannons might do
more than International Orange paint job. Although applying that to the wind screen of offending "pilots"
might help.
---
Thanks for all and various comments RE LED lights.
Larry ( the other one)
blimpy
New member
Bill Archibald.. where do you live.. I am just west of Santa Rosa.. so you cant be too terribly far away.
Ron... did the LED replacement fit physically ok. I did some fancy measurements.. and it looks like 2.1 inches
is the max height that will fit, leaving a tiny bit of clearance for the glass dome in the "tail light".
If so.. gotta get one !
Measured the wing tip nav lights.. and looks like 2.275" is the max with minimal clearance under the red/green
domes.. but that tricky Grimes reflector bulb is very directional. Ah for 2 clear domes.. since I never fly at night.
Ron... did the LED replacement fit physically ok. I did some fancy measurements.. and it looks like 2.1 inches
is the max height that will fit, leaving a tiny bit of clearance for the glass dome in the "tail light".
If so.. gotta get one !
Measured the wing tip nav lights.. and looks like 2.275" is the max with minimal clearance under the red/green
domes.. but that tricky Grimes reflector bulb is very directional. Ah for 2 clear domes.. since I never fly at night.
I'm out of San Carlos. I like the Aveoflash units because they have no power supply, no flasher unit, draw a couple of amps Total, include the white light, appear to be sealed units, and of course the lifetime warrantee. I still need to see them and see how brite is brite, how they fit wrt the usual nav light they will replace, etc. The California rep is at KLVK, and he has demo units. I like to see something new like this, and to buy it from a person...in person.
Gary Brink
New member
I have a set of Whelen strobes and after reading the forum, I had decided that I wouldn't put them in my bird. And my I.A. encouraged me to put them on. He said they might add ten pounds and we will get a field approval for them. I was concerned about having enough amps from my generator and he said if I use LED landing lights, I'll not have a problem.
Gary
Gary