ACA Paint on metal and fiberglass

S

Scaramonga

New member
Does anyone know what brand name of paint that ACA currently uses on fiberglass and metal? I'm refinishing my 7GCBC and would like to know before I buy paint. I've been told that ACA primarily uses Juneau white and I will use this same base color on the fabric.

Thanks,

John
 
John,
I believe they use the Superflite process or at least they used to.
I've used it on both the Champs (in Juneau white) I rebuilt, very easy to work with other than it's a little heavy in my humble opinion. You should be able to find the distriubtor by going to http://www.superflite.com

Hope this helps..... :) Mike Berg
 
Mike-

I've spoken with Superflight and unless ACA has changed suppliers they have not used Superflight for the past few years.

Tom-
 
I've already decided to use PolyFber, along with Poly Tone, but I want a more durable finish on the metal and fiberglass. I'm trying to determine if ACA uses Ditzler, Imron or Aerothane on the non cloth portions of the airplane.

Thanks

John
 
John-

To the best of my knowledge ACA uses the same PPG Delta system automotive coating on the fabric and non-fabric componets.

I would strongly suggest that you use the correct Poly-fiber product otherwise you will have great difficulty with matching and eventually fading. Matching fabric and non-fabric surfaces is extremely difficult.

Tom-
 
Thats correct. PPG on all surfaces.

I would do the whole plane in the same stuff. If you started with Poly Fiber, finish with it. IMO :)
 
Jerry: just a question here. Is the PPG Delta automotive finish STC'd for air craft use? Probably a silly question as it must be, but what do you use under it and what keeps it from cracking as the fabric flexs? (maybe a trade secret :wink: ) I bought a Champ once that had been painted with Imron by one of the previous owners. That stuff is harder than "woodpecker lips" and was, of course, cracked all to he--. I wound up doing the recovering with Superflite, which has worked well over the years. Anyway, just wondering..............
 
Actually the PPG Delta process is not STC'd, only TC'd. By the way it is written, and 7 or 8 could use it.

Anyway, the Delta system is the successor to the superthanes and durathanes that once were Superflite. Yes, Superflite was PPG paint, until 1999. Back then PPG made the product for people like Superflite to get STC's. When the EPA changed the laws on allowable isocyanides in paints, we just went directly to PPG for the replacement so that we could get a product as soon as posible, lest production comes to a screeching halt.

If you look at the new process and the pre-99 process, you see basically the same thing. Weave filling primer with a lot of flex agent. Lots of sanding, etc. Only the chemical make up is a little different (to comply). Whether or not this is a good thing, is a matter of debate....or not. The EPA does not really care what we think, so its a one sided debate. (personal rant there)

Suffice to say, PPG stands behind their product decently and responds well to consumer feedback.
 
"If you look at the new process and the pre-99 process, you see basically the same thing." While basically the "same thing" the results are demonstrably very different. Pre-99 Superflight covered aircraft are not prone to cracking to the extent that has been verified on post-99 Delta system aircraft.

So the product can be used on a 7 or 8 series aircraft by refering to current factory process but it could not be used on any other certified aircraft because it has never received the FAA approval required for issuance of a STC.

Do you have QUV meter test results verifying UV protection, what UV protection is there for the underlying fabric? In my conversations with the experts at PPG, and perusal of PPG supplied documentation, I was informed that the UV inhibitors and stabilizers only provided protection for the Delta system itself and non for the substrate, the fabric.

Tom-
 
Jerry-

"Hijacked", not so, the following is from your post of 6/20/05, while I've spoken with two operators of 2001 aircraft with the lower surface fabric split completely thru you simply label it "questionable" but provide no details of why, split is split. One operator informed me that after ACA recovered his aircraft he was told it was due to a "bad batch of fabric", since all sources of aircraft Dacron I've spoken with have no knowledge of a bad batch of fabric I wonder what the real cause of that case of splitting was. Since my aircraft was produced in the same time frame this is of much more than passing interest to me. Since every post-2000 ACA aircraft I have personally inspected had cracking it seems the frequency of occurance is much more than implied by your msg. And since no owner of a post-2000 aircraft with cracking that I've spoken with has had anymore then cursory interest from ACA in the problem I wonder how you are "trouble shooting" an acknowlegeded problem in the field.

"One of the 'questionable' airplanes made it back to the factory yesterday.....yes, I was here on Father's Day *cough*.....
Unless I get one of those punching daggers from one of those weird weapon shops at a Ren Faire, I don't know if I could put my hand through the fabric of that plane. Not really sure how someone did either. I do know the poor thing needs some TLC.

Suffice to say, the hairline cracks are a cosmetic issue. Nothing more. The frequency of occurance is a whole lot less than one who surfs the net for it might think. In fact, its not many at all. This does not make trouble shooting any easier since its so inconsistant. Anyone who thinks we are neglecting the issue is sorely mistaken. Its not as easy as a piece of metal breaking."

Tom-
 
I must be missing something here .... :shock: ...... are we saying that post 2000 American Champions are prone to the fabric cracking? With the PPG Delta system, I assume. I recovered my Champ in 2000 with Superflite System 2 and no problems as far as I know, other than a small surface fabric crack on the tail where some dummy :oops: pushes on it while moving it around. I've even used it on skis and 10 degree temperature with no problems. Just wondering about the PPG Delta system..........
 
Mike-

You are correct, my 2001 began cracking 3 months after delivery, every post 2000 that I have personally inspected has some degree of cracking. In addition there have been two reports of early 2001 aircraft with complete splitting of the lower wing surface. I spoke with one operator and thought we were talking about splitting until he said "I can reach through the lower surface and grab the ribs".

Jerry's responses to fabric questions never clearly answer the questions raised and in fact raise more questions.

This is from the PPG data sheet titled "DELTA High Solids Polyurethane Systems for Fabric Covered Aircraft"

"The following procedures outline the refinish painting process only. All aircraft construction specifications pertaining to fabric installation should be performed according to the manufacturer's recommendations."

"The guidlines below assume all fabric installation, sealing and filling have been completed according to manufacturer's recommendation."

"NOTE: Manufacturer's or refinishers of fabric covered aircraft should verify performance of the PPG system selected to insure suitability for intended application."

My reading of the spec sheet indicates PPG is careful to only recommend the product as a fnish color coat not as a fabric covering system per se. When they say "manufacturer's" they are refering to a fabric/covering system manufacturer not an aircraft manufacturer who is using the product as a covering system. This reading has been verified in conversation with PPG Delta system reps.

Tom-
 
Hmmm......I hope the Superflight System 6 doesn't fall into the same catagory. I'm in the process of finishing a 7AC using that (Superflite) system. I like the Superflight system, although I'm starting to believe it's a bit on the heavy side......not cheap either and I really don't like monkeying with all the MEK and all the other horrible stuff associated with poly-urathane paint (Yes, I do have a fresh air supply). Maybe I'll have to do the next one with dope :roll: . Never used the Poly-Fiber, but I kind of like a 'shine' when I get done. Although, I guess you can use Aerothane. At my age (66) I probably don't have too many recovery jobs left in me.

Thanks for the "heads up".

Mike Berg
 
Give it a rest,
I have been reading your post's concerning cracking, spliting, etc. for quite some time. I don't think trashing Jerry Jr. about your problem every chance you get is going to help the rest of us get any imput from ACA.
Is your plane kept in a climate controlled environment? How much is it flown a year? Mine has cracks as well, its opperated in tempratures ranging from +120 to -15
Expansion of fabric is huge at these temps. I dont expect its going to look new forever.

If your looking for a mantle piece you may want to buy a spam can.

On the other hand if your tring to make a living with your aircraft and have a legitimate problem take it up with your council and ACA.

Some of us out here dont want to see ACA support look like Beech or Cessna's. I for one, have had great support and service from everyone at ACA. Try calling some other aircraft company and see what you get.
 
If you want the EXACT color that ACA uses call them for the color code that they use. I made the asumption that because they use the superflight process that they also used their paint and they do not. I didn't realize this untill after I painted my fuselage with superflight. I had new wings already sitting and painted from the factory waiting to go on. When I got the fuselage out of the paint booth I about cried. Cost me alot more money to make the colors match. They are different. If in doubt just call them.
 
Mr Scout-

THANKS for the lecture, since this is a fabric covered aircraft fabric issues deserve ACA support, AND response, also........................

Having began my career recovering aircraft I appreciate the issues involved.

Jerryjr has confirmed knowledge of the problems in the quoted msg but failed to answer any further questions. I did not make any public statements about the problem until two years after I discovered my cracking, until well after I verified it was a widespread problem and included splitting, I only went public because there was no response from ACA.

These are legitimate questions, this is not my problem this is an ACA fleetwide concern, fabric splitting is a serious airworthiness issue. This discussion is public because ACA has chosen not to address the concerns of their customers.

Tom-
 
"They are different."

The colors were computer matched from the old Superflite chip chart.
Got enough variables in that sentence to see why they are not quite the same.

Chad or Mandy in parts will have the numbers for you. Maybe off the top of their head :)
 
JerryJr,

Thanks for hanging in there with us. I for one, certainly appreciate you sharing your knowledge with us. Kudos to Mandy and Chad by the way. They (and you) seem never too busy to answer my stupid questions.

John
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top