Need Help with Goodrich Brakes

R

Rodney

New member
Hello fellas. Here is my problem, I have air somewhere in the line and can't get rid of it. There must be a trick of some sort. Here is the situation: Had a failure of some sort in my right master cylinder, pedal went to the floor. After much trouble shooting, ended up pulling the cylinder and taking it apart for the required repair. Cylinder holds good pressure now. Have filled the system, bled it from the top, nope; bled it from the bottom, nope; drained it and filled it from the bottom, nope; still have air in there somewhere and not sure what else to do. I think that it must be in the brake assembly somewhere, perhaps in the top since the fitting for the line to the pedal is not at top center, but slightly off leaving a possible pocket at the top of the assembly? They are the original brakes, little black circular assemblies, looks like a bladder type system. Any suggestions...? Thanks! Rodney
 
C'mon fellas, I really need some help here, no thoughts at all....? I now have another couple of day's of labor into this thing and still cannot lose the air. I am, however, about to lose my mechanic help out of frustration. I've isolated the hose to the cylinder and it holds up tight, the problem seems to be in the wheel assembly. I've even jacked the plane and swung the gear until the line to the cylinder was top center, no luck. I had a guy tell me to get a pressurized sprayer, fabricate a fitting into the hose that can thread into the assembly plug, and under pressure shoot a gallon of fluid up from the bottom and thus forcing any air out. He said that is the only way he can get a system like that to be rid of air, like an old 172 or something like that. Can't believe that a brake system would be designed with that much inherent difficulty to service. Guess that is my next course, and as of now, my only course. Thanks.
 
I doubt the silence has anything to do with a lack of willingness to help, Rodney. Been here a few years now and everyone's got everybody's back. My sense is that readers could be as puzzled as you are, and simply can't think of anything else to try. There is no repair manual, only one mention of brake adjustment (the equalizer spring adjustment valve) in the aircraft manual, a simple listing of the model of the Goodrich brakes approved in the TC, a web search for those brakes (Goodrich model 605MD) only returns the aircraft's TC, and most 14-19 owners swapped out the original brakes for Clevelands long ago.

That said, fewer than 40 members have read the topic. Perhaps seeing a reply or two - useless as this one is - will get more people to click on it and read it. I hope you don't mind, but I've also taken the liberty of changing the topic name to something more specific than "Brake Service Help." That way, if someone scanning the forum happens to be an expert on Goodrich brakes, they are certain to read this topic.

Sorry, Rodney, but that's all I can think of to do.

Jonathan
 
Hey, thanks!! You're welcome to intervene anytime. Also, realizing that I am talking here with a serious lack of savvy doesn't help much, so your prods in that direction are welcomed as well.

I've since spoken with the previous owner, and he confirms my suspicion that the only way to bleed these suckers is the high pressure fluid from the bottom tactic. The only way that he could ever remove air I was told, just too many places for it to hide and not enough pedal throw to push it out from the top. Fabricate some sort of tank and push a gallon of fluid up through the system. I tried filling from the bottom, but pressure is the requirement. A catch line on the plug at the top of the cylender not only catches fluid but keeps air from going back down, will also keep weight and fluid pushing down while the plug is replaced. Either the quick way of one of those plastic pump up garden weed sprayers with a fitting jammed in the hose, or maybe an old freon can with more substantial fittings and hardware for future use, have to see with my guys out here tomorrow. Soooo, that is my next move next week, will report back. Very next move is to look into the cleveland upgrade!

Thank you again. Rodney
 
My abject lack of technical savvy has never shut me up, Rodney <cough>. I like to boast a muscular absence of technical knowledge!

Seriously, please let us know how this blow from below strategy works. That way, the next poor soul suffering the same damned problem will suffer less than you have, sir.

Jonathan
 
Gosh it has been crazy, and most frustrating. I even jacked the plane and swung the main back until the brake line fitting was top dead center and tried to fill and bleed it that way. Best I have been able to get is about half pressure. It works, but is a little un-nerving. Also, the right requires more pressure than the left for the same amount of braking, so I have to mentally compensate with my feet while applying brakes, not optimum during roll out when I am already not terribly comfortable in a tailwheel to begin with. When isolated the cylinder is rock solid with pressure, the problem is the brake assembly on the wheel.

Been out of town most of the last two weeks, and otherwise occupied while home and at work. That being said, I did take my concept of a pressurized bleeder assembly to the local hardware store and after walking ailes and pondering, I have now assembled a wonderful prototype. I purchased a plastic pump up weed sprayer, clear tubing, brass fittings including a valve, hose clamps, and a gallon of aviation hyd fluid. I chopped off the sprayer hose, clamped in the fittings, valve, and clear tubing along with a 1/4" fitting to twist into the brake assembly. I intend on pumping a gallon(s) of fluid under pressure through the system from the bottom to hopefully catch and push out any trapped air. Today is the day. Headed to the airport this afternoon to play my last card in this project, I'll let you know.....
 
Well, I'm back after another frustrating and lost afternoon. I tell ya, a 5 minute job now has the equivalent of several entire days into it and the plane down for nearly a month. After pressure pumping several gallons of fluid through the system, still no luck. Air somewhere in the wheel assembly. At wit's end. Next plan is to pull the wheel, and try the pressure bleed while rotating the wheel assembly, or heck, just try to shake the dang air loose. If that fails I suppose the last resort is to take the wheel assembly apart, put it back together, and see what happens.

Any notes or tricks to pulling a 14-19 wheel? Any comments on taking apart the wheel brake assembly?

Thanks, time to wash up and sit down to a cold one, or six....!
 
Sir Rodney,do yourself a favor all this time and wasted effort upgrade to Clevelands and be done with it. I can send you a copy of the STC and you will never have to dick with brakes again till you change the pads--piece of cake. BTDT Lynn the crate :!:
 
do yourself a favor all this time and wasted effort upgrade to Clevelands and be done with it
Click to expand...

Let's make it happen! Can I connect with you offline for details to determine if it is doable for me..?

For now, unless I convert before any more effort, Tuesday am is the day to pull the wheel and go from there.

I am now one of you guys with the 'almost there, next step, can't wait to fly again' posting.... R
 
BTW, you gave me a much needed smile, my mother refers to me still to this day as 'Sir Rodney'. :)

Wasn't planned that way, but most likely due to my at times difficult mentality, it just sorta stuck with her....
 
Sir Rodney! Feel free to call me about your questions. My cell # 724-544-8480. I will copy you in with all the info I have. I have never had any trouble with my Clevelands when in use. They are not bleed right now since I just got the wings back on. I had fits with Goodyears on a Navion so I know what a time you are having. Drive you to drink------never did thank those Goodyears. Lynn the crate :p
 
Better yet Purchase the STC from Webers, and help the guys out. I did it, and wont look back.

Wentworth will have all the parts.

Webers Aero Repair
2608 Aga Dr
Alexandria, MN 56308
(320) 763-4066
 
Ended up leaving on a trip this week, so brake pain will sit until friday or weekend. Give me a chance to think it over. I don't expect any success swinging the gear while pushing fluid, but we'll see. I think that the assembly is going to have to be taken apart, maybe cleaned, then re-assembled to get anywhere.

I did lightly look into the cleveland upgrade. I got some part numbers from Alexandria and checked supply through wentworth, they have everything and it prices out to around $1400, assuming my parts list is complete. Wheels, axles, rotors, and calipers are the numbers I was given. Let you know when I get back and go to the next step, whichever way it may be.
 
Gentlemen, we have brakes....well, for the most part. I pushed pressurized fluid from the bottom of the assembly while cracking the connection of the line to the offset top of the assembly, where the fitting bends a 90. Air released that for some reason could not get pushed out otherwise. I now have solid pressure on the trouble/right side, only it takes noticeably more pressure and brake travel than the left to get it. Perhaps there is wear in the inner workings of the brake itself allowing more pedal travel, or I still have air in there somewhere? Considering swinging the gear back to put the brake line on full top-dead-center since offset aft 20deg, but nearly out of optimism. I feel that this is as good as these old ones get. Only really apparent when applying brakes hard together on a rolling stop, which I never do. By itself it holds pressure nicely once the pedal hits it. Further debate for clevelands underway...
 
Congulations Rodney...or Sir Rodney as Lynn called you, or perhaps Lord Rodney! :) :)

So, can we up the count of flying 14-19s by one?

Good to hear...now save for Clevelands ;)

Jonathan
 
Jonathon, I knew I could count on you for a reply as the heartbeat of this forum, as besides pure info, that is what forums are for. A gathering of common interest and friendly conversation that doesn't necessarily require a purpose. Thank you for doing so. Yes, indeed, my ship is back in the air and can stand up and be counted. :D
 
You're too kind, Rodney.

Now, quick, let's run over to the forum topic where they're trying to count the flying Triple Tails! I'll be right with ya just as soon as I get these generator bearings :)
 
If this whole long series of posts was about expander tube brakes ( aka goodrich/hayes)

How come nobody suggested he remove the brake assembly ( one cotter pin, one axle nut)
by jacking up the wheel with a floor jack.

The expander tubes can get clogged up with old gummy brake fluid..
and then they wont expand/contract worth crap.

That can happen due to age, rubber contamination, or mixing brake fluids ( auto and red stuff)
or all 3. Alcohol and solvent will eventually disolve it.

Also, the "pads" can be measured and examined with the brake cluster still assembled, depth guage.
and the whole thing will came apart if you remove ( dont break) the sping clips.
A single broken spring clip will render the braking NFG... I found one missing entirely in my 14-13-2.
Made a world of difference.

The drum maybe out of round and need to be turned. Spin it and check .

Hayes brakes are wierd, but simple. Just take it apart and look inside !

I dont believe that this problem continued to be about air in the line.
 
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