What is the best way to clean carbon off of pistons? I dont really like using a wire wheel, and cleaning ring grooves with a ring groove scraper always seems to take a little metal with the carbon. Is there any chemical that will soften carbon up enough for a tooth brush to get into the hard to reach places? Thanks, _____Grant.
Piston cleaning???
- Thread starter gjordan
- Start date
Your right. Wire wheeling an aircraft piston seem a bit barbaric.
Since the long march through the California chemical shelves by Blimpy's bed wetter friends
, there is not much chemistry out there to help. I Googled Amazon and found a product that may be worth trying though called Piston Kleen - $22/gal shipped.
The top of the pistons can be scraped with a piston scraper tool. The classic tool for ring grooves is the underside corner of a broken ring to scrape out any carbon at the bottom of the groove. Don't touch the outer surfaces of the lands.
Anyway, my philosophy is that a normal piston prepped to be trophy clean will look just like it was when you pulled it in about 10 hours of flying time. So, relax on the aesthetics and focus on the mechanics. The condition of the bottom land of the top groove is often the whole game. If it is worn stepped or conical, it will tend to break a new ring.
AP1264XXX
Since the long march through the California chemical shelves by Blimpy's bed wetter friends
, there is not much chemistry out there to help. I Googled Amazon and found a product that may be worth trying though called Piston Kleen - $22/gal shipped.The top of the pistons can be scraped with a piston scraper tool. The classic tool for ring grooves is the underside corner of a broken ring to scrape out any carbon at the bottom of the groove. Don't touch the outer surfaces of the lands.
Anyway, my philosophy is that a normal piston prepped to be trophy clean will look just like it was when you pulled it in about 10 hours of flying time. So, relax on the aesthetics and focus on the mechanics. The condition of the bottom land of the top groove is often the whole game. If it is worn stepped or conical, it will tend to break a new ring.
AP1264XXX
Larry Lowenkron
Member
We use walnut shells &/or plastic beads, NOT sand at school
blimpy
New member
I think:
Soda Blasting is the non destructive tool of choice for making vintage aluminum parts clean again,
without removing material that has dimensional or cosmetic significance.
Look at various motorcycle engine restoration efforts on line to see what the results are.
But it isn't the polished/machined finish of a new piston !
Walnut shells I think are more way more drastic. But Larry L uses them.. I don't use any blasting media.
So I defer ...
If I were stuck with hand methods.. I would clean in MEK and stiff Tooth Brushes... then use Plastic Scraper on the top first.
Do you really have that much carbon in your ring grooves.. or is it really Varnish ? MEK will eat that, even good old Stoddard solvent will give it a good run for the money.
I am a great fan of plastic pot scrubbers.. which come in several levels of abrasive-ness (tude) ivity.
So I would use those next... sticking to the softest of them, and being careful, on piston skirts and crowns.
They aren't going to fit in the ring grooves.. ( are they ?) so I think judicious use of soda blasting there is warranted.
But being ham handed with that or the classic broken ring scraper can be unhappy.
I would ask a Good engine machinist about this before I did anything potentially harmful.
You cant hurt anything with a tooth brush, plastic scraper, or solvent.
What I would do with a lawnmower or junk motorcycle sure aint what I'd do with an airplane.. but ...
its all dirty and then it's all Overhauled.. god only knows what happens in between ! :roll:
Soda Blasting is the non destructive tool of choice for making vintage aluminum parts clean again,
without removing material that has dimensional or cosmetic significance.
Look at various motorcycle engine restoration efforts on line to see what the results are.
But it isn't the polished/machined finish of a new piston !
Walnut shells I think are more way more drastic. But Larry L uses them.. I don't use any blasting media.
So I defer ...
If I were stuck with hand methods.. I would clean in MEK and stiff Tooth Brushes... then use Plastic Scraper on the top first.
Do you really have that much carbon in your ring grooves.. or is it really Varnish ? MEK will eat that, even good old Stoddard solvent will give it a good run for the money.
I am a great fan of plastic pot scrubbers.. which come in several levels of abrasive-ness (tude) ivity.
So I would use those next... sticking to the softest of them, and being careful, on piston skirts and crowns.
They aren't going to fit in the ring grooves.. ( are they ?) so I think judicious use of soda blasting there is warranted.
But being ham handed with that or the classic broken ring scraper can be unhappy.
I would ask a Good engine machinist about this before I did anything potentially harmful.
You cant hurt anything with a tooth brush, plastic scraper, or solvent.
What I would do with a lawnmower or junk motorcycle sure aint what I'd do with an airplane.. but ...
its all dirty and then it's all Overhauled.. god only knows what happens in between ! :roll:
blimpy
New member
Just remembered, there is a guy down at Santa Paula who only overhauls antique aircraft engines.
I mean unobtanium certified stuff.
That is his business.
It would be worth picking his brains.. since he cant afford to waste any serviceable or repairable part he gets in his hands.
Dan Torrey knows him.
I mean unobtanium certified stuff.
That is his business.
It would be worth picking his brains.. since he cant afford to waste any serviceable or repairable part he gets in his hands.
Dan Torrey knows him.
blimpy
New member
A spray can product even my bed wetter friends know about ( WTF Ron ? ) is Berryman's .. available at any NAPA.
Basically a mish-mosh of Ketones, Acetone, Xylene.. all the basic food groups.
I have used it for years and one half of my body still works fine - if you ignore the twitching - for "Carburetor Parties"
where it removes all manner of gum, varnish and etc.
I would like to know what is in ronm's piston cleaner.
I think one thing that will actually remove Carbon.. is an oxygen rich flame from an acetylene torch.
Probably plays hob with aluminum alloy.. but you asked !
Pure carbon is quite soft.. so once you have used the bed wetter solvent to remove any varnish and gum ,
simple plastic tools should mechanically remove it.
if you want to do it chemically, experiment on something less critical like old valve stems, dead spark plugs,
or bar-b-que chicken.
Basically a mish-mosh of Ketones, Acetone, Xylene.. all the basic food groups.
I have used it for years and one half of my body still works fine - if you ignore the twitching - for "Carburetor Parties"
where it removes all manner of gum, varnish and etc.
I would like to know what is in ronm's piston cleaner.
I think one thing that will actually remove Carbon.. is an oxygen rich flame from an acetylene torch.
Probably plays hob with aluminum alloy.. but you asked !
Pure carbon is quite soft.. so once you have used the bed wetter solvent to remove any varnish and gum ,
simple plastic tools should mechanically remove it.
if you want to do it chemically, experiment on something less critical like old valve stems, dead spark plugs,
or bar-b-que chicken.
SoCalPlaneDoc
New member
I use a witch's brew of MEK, Toluene, and Xylene in an ultrasonic and heated cleaner machine. Makes everything look like it just came in a sealed bag with certs and a kiss from the FAA.
Got the machine from work. they used it for cleaning 3D printed parts with a mild lye solution until the union-attitude/uber-liberal/find-any-reason-to-get-out-of-actually-working/needle-necked blue coats staged a protest. 7 gallon capacity of german built savior to anyone that has grimy parts.... and is smart enough to wear gloves.
my landing gear parts are going in it today - Stand by for an increased global climate change rate!
Got the machine from work. they used it for cleaning 3D printed parts with a mild lye solution until the union-attitude/uber-liberal/find-any-reason-to-get-out-of-actually-working/needle-necked blue coats staged a protest. 7 gallon capacity of german built savior to anyone that has grimy parts.... and is smart enough to wear gloves.
my landing gear parts are going in it today - Stand by for an increased global climate change rate!
I think I will try the MEK first. Damn, I passed up a commercial ultrasonic cleaner at an auction a while back. Cant buy everything. I just got 240 volt wiring to my shop, so I can start to set up a big old beadblast cabinet that I have. I am sure there will be a learning curve to use it without damaging things. Old dogs and new tricks take time. Thanks guys. ______Grant.
SoCalPlaneDoc
New member
They sell two sizes, neither is big enough for a piston. They work pretty good though, my wife has one and it cleans jewelry nicely.blimpy said:
this one is big enough to do 2 at a time I think: http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Stainle...895?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4869d3b2ef
This thread got me doing a little research on the chem cleaning side. Since my pref for Gunk type hydro-seal piston cleaning was established about a lifetime ago, I wondered what chemical solutions might still be available. Well, I could be wrong, but for piston cleaning, most products seem to be a waste of money now, at least anything sold in California. To meet the VOC limits, the lacquer type cleaners, marginal to begin with, are loaded with alcohol and acetone which does not favor piston cleaning. This includes any spray can product sold in California including Berryman.
However, if you happen to live in one of the other states, though, Berryman Chem -Dip 5 gal just might be worth a try. It is product #0905. I looked at the MSDS's of a lot of products and this has some of the good stuff in it yet. Beware of any Berryman product that has a "C" (California) after the number. It will tend to be a neutered, worthless version. Also, sadly, anything that says "Gunk" on it is now probably worthless as well. From reports, this also includes their pricey pail products. The Greenies got to 'em.
Of course, Larry L 's walnut shell/bead blasting is OK, too, if you have the equipment and a little extra time to gently tease carbon out of ring groves. And we'll all be curious how the ultrasonic equipment works for this specialized task.
ron
However, if you happen to live in one of the other states, though, Berryman Chem -Dip 5 gal just might be worth a try. It is product #0905. I looked at the MSDS's of a lot of products and this has some of the good stuff in it yet. Beware of any Berryman product that has a "C" (California) after the number. It will tend to be a neutered, worthless version. Also, sadly, anything that says "Gunk" on it is now probably worthless as well. From reports, this also includes their pricey pail products. The Greenies got to 'em.
Of course, Larry L 's walnut shell/bead blasting is OK, too, if you have the equipment and a little extra time to gently tease carbon out of ring groves. And we'll all be curious how the ultrasonic equipment works for this specialized task.
ron
I tried one of the small Harbor Freight ultra sonic cleaners. It said not to put any chemicals into it, so just used water and a little detergent. Didnt do anything at all. Of course they have about a 5 minute limit on cleaning, so I had to re-start it every time I walked past it. I am practicing on some C 125 pistons before I do anything to Franklin Pistons. California is a great place to live, but we have way too many rules. Some are good and many are overkill. OH WELL. ______Grant.
I got out my old siphon sand blaster this morning and tried walnut shells. Another failed experiment! It clogged up as soon as I pulled the trigger. I dont know if it is the wrong nozzle size or the length of the hose. A few months ago, I bought a soda blast conversion kit for my old blaster. It turns out that it has to be a pressure pot type for the conversion to work. I need a few more things to get my bead blast cabinet, and then I will have to see if I need different nozzles for different media. It makes sense that I will. OH Well, I am having fun and learning something, even if it is what not to do. ______Grant.
Larry Lowenkron
Member
It may be clogged due to Moisture or, as you say nozzle size. I seem to remember cleaning 18 Pistons one day and I don't remember it as one of the more fun days of my retirement!
I dont think it was a moisture problem. I blew out the hose and the gun and switched to grit, and did a bunch of non aviation rusty parts, and it worked great. This afternoon I was looking at a variety of grits that came with the beadblast cabinet, and discovered a finer grade of walnut shells. I might try that tomorrow and see if it makes any difference. I read the whole label on a can of EASY OFF OVEN CLEANER, and darn, it said not to use on aluminum. Larry, would you be able to find out what size nozzles they use for various media at the school? Probably whoever does the purchasing would know? No rush, I dont do anything in a hurry anymore, except get old. That is happening much too fast. ______Grant.
Larry Lowenkron
Member
Grant, You optimist, you actually think we are that organized that someone would know what we use for nozzles? They clog when I have used them, so I just hold my gloved hand over the nozzle and clear it. Regardless of what you use, it is going to be a slow process, so just steel yourself to a given period each day to work on them. You might want to make some gross measurements before you even start cleaning them. If they don't pass dirty, I kind of doubt they would pass clean!
Regarding oven cleaner...I think that it has sodium hydroxide in it...draino, which just loves to eat metals. I don't know of any aviation engine shops that use chemical cleaning for pistons...of course that doesn't mean that there isn't someone out there that has come up with the magic elixir, I just don't know.
Regarding oven cleaner...I think that it has sodium hydroxide in it...draino, which just loves to eat metals. I don't know of any aviation engine shops that use chemical cleaning for pistons...of course that doesn't mean that there isn't someone out there that has come up with the magic elixir, I just don't know.
Dan Cullman
New member
I don't know what all the fuss is about.
I have always cleaned pistons in my glass bead blaster. After cleaning, blast off any residue with compressed air. Pass your #5 torch all over the piston for few seconds, any remaining beads will explode and be converted to dust. Blast with air again. Buff as necessary. Been doing this for years with no contamination.
Dan
I have always cleaned pistons in my glass bead blaster. After cleaning, blast off any residue with compressed air. Pass your #5 torch all over the piston for few seconds, any remaining beads will explode and be converted to dust. Blast with air again. Buff as necessary. Been doing this for years with no contamination.
Dan
I will give the smaller walnut shells a try, but I think Dan is right. It is an hour and a half drive to the big city, so I will buy a sack of glass beads when I go over next week. Dan, is there a particular size of glass beads that you use? I suspect the supplier will offer me choices, and I wont know what would be best. Thanks.______Grant.
Dan Cullman
New member
If you can find made in USA beads, get them; otherwise Harbor Freight has 25 pound boxes. When the media becomes powdery, you should dump into a bucket and the you can spread them in your garden and they'll disappear. I don't know if there are any sizes to glass beads.......
Dan
Dan
Larry Lowenkron
Member
Dan, have you been using glass or plastic beads? I understand that the silicon in glass can contaminate the aluminum.??
LL
LL