Transponder and ADS-B for Basic VFR

C

Clgantjr

New member
Hello all. I'm new to the forum and a new owner of a 1967 Citabria. Great forum. I'm glad to be here.

Our Citabria is equipped for basic VFR, with a hand held radio and a Garmin 196 mounted in the panel. Unfortunately, we are going to be based at an airport that lies within a mode C veil and are thus required to install a transponder. As I started researching transponders, I quickly learned about the impending requirement to have a transponder with ADS-B Out by 2020. The prices for this equipment are eye-watering. The way I see it, I have several options:
1. Spend about $2500 to install a basic solid state mode C transponder now and worry about ADS-B later.
2. Spend more and buy an upgradable transponder now and hope that the ADS-B equipment gets cheaper in the next 5 years.
3. Spend a butt-load of money on full ADS-B now.

From a cost perspective, option 1 is the best, but I hate to spend that much money on equipment that I know will be obsolete soon.
Option 2 seems to be the best way to go, but I am seeking input on what equipment to buy.
Option 3 is a non-starter. I'm not going to spend that kind of money on this airplane.

So... what are you basic VFR pilots doing? Any recommendations for the simplest solution to add a transponder with ADS-B out, or one that is capable of operating mode C or S now and easily upgradable to ADS-B in 5 years.

I appreciate any input.
 
From what I have heard, there are really 2 basic theories.

1. Wait as long as possible to go ADS-B out compliant as the equipment is likely to change, the rules are likely to change and the prices are likely to come down.

2. Don't wait too long because there will be a mad rush at the last minute and you won't make the deadline and be grounded. (Assuming the FAA doesn't postpone the deadline)

Also from what I have heard and read, few manufacturers are really ready with proper light plane equipment now anyway.

As for not having a transponder now, why not consider a good used mode c transponder now. Many are on the marked for a very reasonable price. Then wait at least a little while to see how the ADS-B market shakes out.

If I were in your shoes, I would find a basic used inexpensive mode c transponder and get several years use out of it. If you really want to go new, I would surely get a transponder that is compatible with equipment for the ADS-B compliance - then wait on the buying rest of the equipment.

Keep in mind, I am not an expert in this area, but I have stayed at several Holiday Inn Express' during my lifetime.

Dale
 
Inexpensive option:

Pick up a used Apollo/Garmin SL70 now, send it in and have the latest firmware done.

Plan on a NavWorx or Freeflight Systems box that has the GPS built in.

The SL70 should cost you between $700 and $1200 and last FOREVER. I'd imagine the firmware update is $500 from Garmin. We have one in my Dad's C177 and are just installing the Navworx box in next week. SL70+Navworx is hands down the cheapest option at the moment. I wouldn't bet on things getting cheaper as we get closer to the deadline.
 
Thanks for the input.
After talking to a few avionics guys on the phone today, I'm leaning in the direction OSXUSER described. Buying a mode C transponder now and adding a UAT from Navworks or Freeflight later on down the road. However, instead of going with an SL70, I'm thinking about using a Sandia STX-165. I can buy it new for $1585. It comes with a built in altitude encoder and is smaller and lighter. The used SL70s I found were upwards around $1400 without an encoder.

Anyone have any experience with the Sandia products?

Thanks again.
 
The Mode C veil is a 30NM ring around class B airports. Many of us are fortunate enough to operate within that for the majority of our flying. :lol:

As to the transponders, I installed a Sandia in a Stearman 2 months ago. Not a solid a transponder as the SL70 from a construction and robustness viewpoint, but still quite good. The trick here is whether the Sandia supplies code information and altitude output to the ADS-B. I think a call to Sandia would be worth the time before investing. The SL70 with the latest firmware does, and thus is a direct plug in to the NavWorx (and presumably the FreeFlight) box. I'd imagine other digital transponders do this as well, such as the GTX327 and perhaps the KT76C?
 
I tell everyone that the requirement is 2020...wait until 2019.
Avionics will change a lot in 5 years. Someone will have a competitive solution by then.

We have been putting in a few GDL-88's in new ones though. If you like weather and traffic on, say, a GTN 750 big screen...its really amazing stuff. However, its not Joe Plumber priced yet.
 
If I understand your original post, your airplane does not have a transponder installed now?

FAR 99.13 says that a transponder with Mode C must be installed, and turned on, for all aircraft, effective December 30, 1990, if you fly anywhere in the USA. The only exception is aircraft without an engine driven generator, see 99.13(d).
 
This the risk of mis-reading again, I think the reg says that in all airspace the installed transponder must meet certain requirements. Also the installed transponder must be on and operating. However, the equipment is only required when operating around Class B and C airspace or above 10,000ft. I had to read it a few time before it sunk into my thick skull.
 
Anywhere a Mode C transponder is currently required, ADS-B will be required. Really that simple.

I'm sorry Jerry, I disagree. Stuff isn't going to get any cheaper before 2020. 2019 will bring thousands of late adopters, backed up avionics shops and manufacturers, and price gouging because of it. Starting now to get ready is a pretty good idea from where I'm sitting.
 
Only time will tell who is right. However, you have to define cheaper. Installed, you are looking at $6K for the GDL-88 and that does not include the $20K or so for a GTN750 set up (maybe say 10K for a 650 installed). I am pretty sure there will be something for less than $15K.

I equate it to the 406 ELT conversion. Early units (2 years before the requirement) cost way more than status quo.
 
The current two certified systems from someone other than Garmin are $3500 (Navworx http://www.navworx.com/) and $4000 (FreeFlight Systems http://www.freeflightsystems.com/). These units need a good signal from the transponder for the squawk code (SL70, GTX327, potentially the Sandia STX165 and King KT76C output this, not sure about the last two).

These are COMPLETE systems other than the newer mode C transponder, including WAAS GPS built in, 978 ADS-B in and out. I'm fairly certain that this is a cheap as it's going to get for a good solid solution. I like FreeFlight's system a little better, but so far, their customer service has been awful for me. Navworx has been great. My dad and I are customers of both.

All you need to add is a display if you want the wx and traffic in the cockpit. They can interface with pretty much anything built-in or an iPad with an optional adapter.

I for one REFUSE to get on the Garmin 10-year refresh train. Spending 20K on a single radio setup now is MORE than we spent on the whole radio stack we put in 10 years ago (PSe7000B audio, Apollo MX20 MFD, GX60 GPS/Com, SL30 Nav/Com, SL70 Trans). They charge these insane prices, than have the nerve to discontinue support for a 10 year old product like the GNS430. I'm so glad we decide back in 2002 to put in the Apollo stack instead of Dual GNS430's. When we upgraded this last year, we put in a GMX-200 to upgrade the MX20 ($1500 difference in price). Bumped the Audio panel to an PSe 8000B ($400 exchanged), and replaced the CDI and DG with a Sandel 3308 backed by a King gyro and compass ($3000). The Navworx we are putting in that airplane (It's a Cardinal) brings it up to complete compliance in 2016 (They have an upgrade to the GPS scheduled for that time). The only thing we don't have the capability of doing is WAAS gps approaches. I'll live without that.

I'm looking around for an SL70 for my GCBC to back up the FreeFlight box I have waiting to install. That and an SL40 Com. Link the traffic display to my iPad and I'll be ready to go for the foreseeable future. MUCH less than $15k. Garmin isn't a value brand.
 
I am going to have to check those out at Oshkosh for comparison.
I am not a Garmin fanboi, but the Garmin setup has slick tracking visually displayed. I would think these guys are compatible with a WAAS GPS with display. Which...in the context of my post would only put them 1000 to 1500 less than the Garmin. I consider the display as part of the requirement. I suppose you can just live with the audible warning. To me that's buying a refrigerator and not using the freezer section.
 
If the display is part of it, then yes. An $1500 used MX20 will display for either unit. Also can display to Aspen, or GNS style boxes. I'm sure others as well, of course the iPad. If you have a WAAS gps already like a 430W, 480 or GTN, you can exclude the GPS out of the FreeFlight box which saves around $1000 I believe. Personally, for an aircraft like my Citabria, its going to be an iPad. I can't get around the price for a VFR airplane, even for the MX20.

I agree that the fully integrated Garmin unit is slick, but for the last few years they've gone proprietary on all their interfacing. That makes it so only Garmin works with Garmin, I don't like that at all.
 
Forgive me if I'm speaking out any level of knowing what I'm talking about. This is about airing an opinion.

The problem with the 2020 ADS-B Out mandate is that nobody in my "middle class" income stream can afford to comply. Period. I have a house in the SF Bay Area that needs to be brought into earthquake compliance. That will be around $5,000. I'm not whining about that. My complaint is that the NextGen regulations were written without regard for technology improvements.

I know that I won't get any following here but I have to post this anyway. What would happen if nobody complied? I have an airplane that can go from point A to point B, as long as the sun is shining and I can see the ground below and the horizon ahead. It's going to cost me $5,000 to install a gizmo that tells others where I am. I don't get the dollar amount. An add-on to a tablet could accomplish that same thing, right? It's time to write to our Congress people and slow down the upcoming train wreck.

Bruce.
8KCAB
N52245.
 
Bruce, I'm sure lots of people said the same thing in the '70's when the Mode C transponders started being required. Billions and Billions have been spent on the back end support for ADS-B in the NAS (National Airspace System), a couple of letters aren't going to reverse a decade of research (Capstone) and 75% completed implementation on the ground stations. The rest of the world has already left Mode C behind. The carrot is the ability to see other aircraft with the IN functions of ADS-B. That function can be mimicked by a tablet with a receiver. The actual functionality of you broadcasting a stream out is what costs the money. Some aircraft that have kept more modern in terms of Avionics have cheaper upgrade paths. Still $3500-5000 every 40 years isn't that bad in my view.
 
You need a mule and everybody is discussing Polo Ponies and Race Horses !

C'mon guys.

A decent brand new Altitude Encoder for mode C costs as little as $100 bucks new !
A decent used transponder can be had for $500 working.

All you need an avionics guy for, is to ramp check the system every 2 years, which costs about $100.

Get the transponder with it's wiring harness ( two wires and a plug). You can buy a used antenna also.

You can install the thing yourself, and have an A&P sign it off along with the new weight and balance entry.

2020 is 6 years away.

Are you so sure you will be flying the same plane then ?

Oh really !

All electronics is made by robots, using surface mount components.
It is all disposable, because no human can/will work on the stuff.

So, as with everything in avionics... standards are changing, prices for simple systems are dropping.
You are NOT flying a Biz Jet, with triple redundant glass panels.
Chances are my $150 Samsung Tab 2 running Garmin Pilot and a couple of $3 apps ( which give me VOR/DME and Gyro Horizon) has more functionality than your propably obsolete 196.

So, look at all the outboard ADS-B recievers with GPS and god knows what all else that are out there, and look at what they
cost, compared to fancy arse Garmin stuff.

Get functional for todays world, and do it simply. 20 year old transponders works just as well today as they did when they were expensive. Add the encoder, mount the stuff and the little antenna. Let tomorrow take care of it's self.

Note.. what makes everything work to day is Large Scale Integration ( LSI ).
Chips in other words.

Somebody ( or several somebodies) will make a cheap reliable ADS-B Chip that will do everything but zip your fly,
and they will spew them out by the millions.

Buy one then.

:oops:
 
Good advice.

Airlines and General Aviation is not equipping their aircraft with ADS because the is no return on the investment. The taxpayers, airlines, and GA are getting screwed by their government again according to government reports! Likewise, less than 5% of the airline/GA fleet is equipped and there is little incentive for more to comply. Hopefully this system will die on the vine due to lack of participation until it is beneficial.

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2014/September/25/Watchdog-report-highlights-problems-with-NextGen-mandate
 
I don't know where you are getting your information, but airlines are equipping to meet the mandate. Supposedly about 10% of the GA fleet is already equipped. How many times I can say it, I do not know. THIS IS NOT GOING AWAY. Everyone has had TONS of notice, and it's still 5 years away. The FAA has spent BILLIONS on the back end support for ADS-B, and they aren't the only one. ADS-B is going to be the standard in Europe and Canada as well. Seriously guys, if you don't fly in an area that needs a Mode C transponder, then you can not equip, and watch the value of your airplane drop $4000. Or just put one of these in:

https://www.pacificcoastavionics.com/products/2995-rangr-fdl-978-xvrg-ads-b.aspx

It really isn't that big a deal.
 
Garmin just announced a "low cost" ADS-B product, the GDL 84, which "self-interrogates" with most GA transponders. To be available in early 2015 for $3995.
 
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