Oil cooler for 1413.
- Thread starter Gary Brink
- Start date
Gary Brink
New member
They told me that it is smaller than the one I sent to them but more efficient. I will also have to change the system of measuring my oil temp as my old "oil probe" will not work. That also have that covered for more $$$.
Gary
Gary
jeffw
New member
Gary,
Did you find a pre-existing 337 for this replacement oil cooler or obtain a new one? And, did you run into any significant challenges in switching it out? It appears to be a pretty close, or almost identical clone, including the temp probe fitting.
I agree with your justification for swallowing the cost. I checked with Susan Prall who says she has a couple of original Heat Exchanger units that she is sending out for testing and flushing that she is pricing at $625.
I have ordered the 102C from Pacific for my 14-13-2/Franklin 165; Pacific sent me a 337 they have for a 14-19, N6579N, Lyc O-435, in Gilbert AZ in 2010. And, this 14-19's 337 lists it as an Airframe Alteration; figured this would be a Powerplant Repair. This 337 lists three previous 337's as further justification.
Gary Brink said:
Did you find a pre-existing 337 for this replacement oil cooler or obtain a new one? And, did you run into any significant challenges in switching it out? It appears to be a pretty close, or almost identical clone, including the temp probe fitting.
I agree with your justification for swallowing the cost. I checked with Susan Prall who says she has a couple of original Heat Exchanger units that she is sending out for testing and flushing that she is pricing at $625.
I have ordered the 102C from Pacific for my 14-13-2/Franklin 165; Pacific sent me a 337 they have for a 14-19, N6579N, Lyc O-435, in Gilbert AZ in 2010. And, this 14-19's 337 lists it as an Airframe Alteration; figured this would be a Powerplant Repair. This 337 lists three previous 337's as further justification.
bdon661
New member
Gary:
Please keep us posted on your new oil cooler from Pacific. They are a very good company, I've used them for some custom applications on an R-985 that is used in hardcore aerobatics and was very pleased with their product. Some of the other posts mention a Pacific Cooler application that will 'work' on the 150 and 165 Franklins, but requires a bump in the bottom cowl to make it fit. I will eventually need a new oil cooler and don't mine paying Pacific's price, as long as I don't have to alter my existing cowling, which is pristine. If the cooler they are making for you fits in the existing cowl without adding a bump, please share the pertinent specs and your point of contact at Pacific so I can have a duplicate of your cooler built.
Please keep us posted on your new oil cooler from Pacific. They are a very good company, I've used them for some custom applications on an R-985 that is used in hardcore aerobatics and was very pleased with their product. Some of the other posts mention a Pacific Cooler application that will 'work' on the 150 and 165 Franklins, but requires a bump in the bottom cowl to make it fit. I will eventually need a new oil cooler and don't mine paying Pacific's price, as long as I don't have to alter my existing cowling, which is pristine. If the cooler they are making for you fits in the existing cowl without adding a bump, please share the pertinent specs and your point of contact at Pacific so I can have a duplicate of your cooler built.
Gary Brink
New member
I had sent them an oil cooler to see if it could be repaired. It wasn't repairable but they built a new one that fit nearly perfect. I believe I had to add a small amount of closed cell foam on the two sides as it was Shirley narrower than the original. Everything else fit and there was no alternation
on the cowl.
Gary
on the cowl.
Gary
Larry Lowenkron
Member
Not exactly Frank. I wish it were so. Take a look at the cooler that goes on a Cruisair. Pretty different than most. POC does make one for the Stinson and L-19, but it's not approved for the Cruisair so u have to get field approval. I've got a bunch of field approvals and it can be pretty frustrating, unless you want to go FSDO shopping. That also can be frustrating.
bdon661
New member
Gary:
Many thanks for the post! Does the cooler have a model number or spec number? If I call Pacific Cooler and order one, how do I reference the cooler they built for you? My very needy red headed Italian drama queen of an airplane has asserted her need for attention and funds - I'm building up a 165 Franklin for her and would like to incorporate the oil cooler that Pacific developed for you in the new engine. Thank you again for sharing your experience!
Many thanks for the post! Does the cooler have a model number or spec number? If I call Pacific Cooler and order one, how do I reference the cooler they built for you? My very needy red headed Italian drama queen of an airplane has asserted her need for attention and funds - I'm building up a 165 Franklin for her and would like to incorporate the oil cooler that Pacific developed for you in the new engine. Thank you again for sharing your experience!
jeffw
New member
I received my new gleaming aluminum 102C oil cooler from Pacific.
It is a couple of inches shorter than the original Heat Exchanger cooler, and much lighter. It comes with an aluminum mounting bracket to span between the two mounting tabs that extend down beside each side of the oil pan. The bracket supplied is about 0.70 thick aluminum and is un-drilled to allow for positioning. I will have to slightly modify my air intake tunnel to fit the narrower cooler size; the cross section size is the same height as the original cooler but a little smaller front to back. No need to do any modifications to the under-cowling.
The oil temperature probe boss and the boss that houses the oil pressure relief valve is mounted similar to the original and are machined from aluminum hex section tubes. The boss that houses the oil temperature probe is not as long overall length of my original cooler's temp boss, and the outflow end of the boss is threaded (NPT) to accept a brass hose nipple.
The problem with this was that the OD of the oil temp probe was very close tolerance into the ID of the brass nipple and only allowed for about 0.02" to 0.03" circumference clearance for the entire oil flow to pass through. George Leamy who rebuilt Franklins for over 40 years and rebuilt mine felt that this was too restictive. The original cooler had a short (5/8" shoulder-to-shoulder) steel 5/8" NC male-female extender at the end of the boss that the oil probe screws in to; the original oil temp boss was an aluminum tube that funneled down gradually at the outlet end and was wider ID at that end. The solution we came up with is that Pacific is machining a 1-7/8" long extender to replace the 5/8" long extender to position the oil temp probe back in to the boss enough to open up the oil flow area at the outflow end where the brass hose nipple is. Either my oil temp probe is unusually long or Pacific will have to make the oil temp probe boss longer to avoid adding the machined extender. This may be unique to each oil temp probe's length. If you do order one from Pacific make sure you review this with Wayne Thomas at Pacific.
The cooler is not PMA'ed and the invoice labels it as EXPERIMENTAL. So, to accommodate the gov (FAA) a 337 field approval is necessary. The only copy of a 337 that Pacific had on file was for a 14-19 owned by a fellow in Arizona; that 337 mentioned that there were 3 other 337 approved but no specific info on those 337's. I have tried to contact and left messages with the 14-19 owner a few times with no call back. If anyone does have a 337 for the Pacific 102C for a 14-13 please let me know; that may help with me and others getting a field approval.
Wayne was very helpful and accommodating each time I called and I never had to wait more than 30 seconds for him to answer a page for the phone if he wasn't the one who answered the phone. They are providing me the machined extender gratis to help me make the cooler fit properly, which I appreciate greatly.
It is a couple of inches shorter than the original Heat Exchanger cooler, and much lighter. It comes with an aluminum mounting bracket to span between the two mounting tabs that extend down beside each side of the oil pan. The bracket supplied is about 0.70 thick aluminum and is un-drilled to allow for positioning. I will have to slightly modify my air intake tunnel to fit the narrower cooler size; the cross section size is the same height as the original cooler but a little smaller front to back. No need to do any modifications to the under-cowling.
The oil temperature probe boss and the boss that houses the oil pressure relief valve is mounted similar to the original and are machined from aluminum hex section tubes. The boss that houses the oil temperature probe is not as long overall length of my original cooler's temp boss, and the outflow end of the boss is threaded (NPT) to accept a brass hose nipple.
The problem with this was that the OD of the oil temp probe was very close tolerance into the ID of the brass nipple and only allowed for about 0.02" to 0.03" circumference clearance for the entire oil flow to pass through. George Leamy who rebuilt Franklins for over 40 years and rebuilt mine felt that this was too restictive. The original cooler had a short (5/8" shoulder-to-shoulder) steel 5/8" NC male-female extender at the end of the boss that the oil probe screws in to; the original oil temp boss was an aluminum tube that funneled down gradually at the outlet end and was wider ID at that end. The solution we came up with is that Pacific is machining a 1-7/8" long extender to replace the 5/8" long extender to position the oil temp probe back in to the boss enough to open up the oil flow area at the outflow end where the brass hose nipple is. Either my oil temp probe is unusually long or Pacific will have to make the oil temp probe boss longer to avoid adding the machined extender. This may be unique to each oil temp probe's length. If you do order one from Pacific make sure you review this with Wayne Thomas at Pacific.
The cooler is not PMA'ed and the invoice labels it as EXPERIMENTAL. So, to accommodate the gov (FAA) a 337 field approval is necessary. The only copy of a 337 that Pacific had on file was for a 14-19 owned by a fellow in Arizona; that 337 mentioned that there were 3 other 337 approved but no specific info on those 337's. I have tried to contact and left messages with the 14-19 owner a few times with no call back. If anyone does have a 337 for the Pacific 102C for a 14-13 please let me know; that may help with me and others getting a field approval.
Wayne was very helpful and accommodating each time I called and I never had to wait more than 30 seconds for him to answer a page for the phone if he wasn't the one who answered the phone. They are providing me the machined extender gratis to help me make the cooler fit properly, which I appreciate greatly.
I have found many Franklin oil coolers with the extended adapter, and some without. It is not that Bellanca put different coolers on, but that our old 3 in 1 gauges come with different length probes. This may have been from the factory getting different batches of surplus gauges, or from replacement over the years. If you have the longer probe and dont use the extender, you will restrict oil flow and have very high temps. If you have the shorter probe and use it with the extender, I think you will be measuring oil that is not moving very much in the cavity that the extender creates, and get false temp readings. I think that Pacific should continue making them the same length probe receptical and supply extenders if your specific gauge has the longer probe. Just my 2 cents worth. Grant.
jeffw
New member
Grant,
That certainly makes sense why oil temp probes would be different lengths and why the extender should be the way to adjust for that.
I'll call Wayne at Pacific and pass that on.
Larry L, you mention that you have many 337's; any chance your stack includes one for the 102C on a Franklin 165/14-13?
That certainly makes sense why oil temp probes would be different lengths and why the extender should be the way to adjust for that.
I'll call Wayne at Pacific and pass that on.
Larry L, you mention that you have many 337's; any chance your stack includes one for the 102C on a Franklin 165/14-13?
Larry Lowenkron
Member
Jeff, I'm out of town right now, and will check when I get back next week. Depends on the weather,as usual.
bdon661
New member
Gary & Jeff:
I'm going to call Pacific tomorrow and order a 102C oil cooler for my airplane. Can either of you contact me by phone or email? I'd love to have some pics of how you are making the installation work - what you describe in this thread makes perfect sense, but my Cro-Magnon brain hearkens back to the behavior of its predecessors who painted pictures on the inside of caves - one pic is worth a lot of posts and emails.
I'll type out my phone number phonetically in hopes the board software allows it to post. It is area code eight one seven. Seven eight one. One six four two. It's my personal cell, so call any time and if you get voice mail, just leave a message.
Best Wishes,
Brad Donner
NC86916
I'm going to call Pacific tomorrow and order a 102C oil cooler for my airplane. Can either of you contact me by phone or email? I'd love to have some pics of how you are making the installation work - what you describe in this thread makes perfect sense, but my Cro-Magnon brain hearkens back to the behavior of its predecessors who painted pictures on the inside of caves - one pic is worth a lot of posts and emails.
I'll type out my phone number phonetically in hopes the board software allows it to post. It is area code eight one seven. Seven eight one. One six four two. It's my personal cell, so call any time and if you get voice mail, just leave a message.
Best Wishes,
Brad Donner
NC86916
Larry Lowenkron
Member
How about posting the pictures here. I sure would like to see them too, and am sure others would too, considering the fact the existing coolers are getting long in the tooth...and have tooth decay to boot!
jeffw
New member
Pics of new and old oil cooler. The new all aluminum cooler weighs in at 3.5 lbs is pretty, the old at 9.5 lbs and is not as pretty.
The POC cooler came with the alum mounting bracket shown, didn't mic it but it's about 0.08" thick, un-drilled for owner to align and drill the mounting holes. I adjusted the outboard bracket mounting flanges slightly and clecoed it to the new cooler to make final adjustments prior to drilling the holes. POC is machining a thermostat probe boss extension for the outflow end of the boss to allow for the length of my thermostat to not protrude into the brass hose fitting that will go at the outflow end. (NOTE: this may be the end where the oil is flowing into the cooler, I'm thinking that the oil temp would be taken where the oil has just departed the engine rather than after it goes through the cooler - I need to study this a little)1/3/16 - I looked at this more and posted my conclusion below in a new post. Extending into that brass fitting severely restricted the oil flow at that point. In the pics you can see that the new 102C cooler is shorter than the old one and I am mounting it so the hose fitting end of it lines up where the original one did at the left side of the engine to facilitate the oil hose fittings to the engine. I'll need to close-up the right side intake air duct to cooler gap with an aluminum piece. The cooler has flanges across the front and back on both top and bottom that are pre-dilled to attach to the bracket. The cooler also came with a brass hose fitting to screw into the outflow end of the thermostat boss and a brass right angle hose fitting to screw into the bottom left side of the cooler, each for 1/2" ID hose.
The POC cooler came with the alum mounting bracket shown, didn't mic it but it's about 0.08" thick, un-drilled for owner to align and drill the mounting holes. I adjusted the outboard bracket mounting flanges slightly and clecoed it to the new cooler to make final adjustments prior to drilling the holes. POC is machining a thermostat probe boss extension for the outflow end of the boss to allow for the length of my thermostat to not protrude into the brass hose fitting that will go at the outflow end. (NOTE: this may be the end where the oil is flowing into the cooler, I'm thinking that the oil temp would be taken where the oil has just departed the engine rather than after it goes through the cooler - I need to study this a little)1/3/16 - I looked at this more and posted my conclusion below in a new post. Extending into that brass fitting severely restricted the oil flow at that point. In the pics you can see that the new 102C cooler is shorter than the old one and I am mounting it so the hose fitting end of it lines up where the original one did at the left side of the engine to facilitate the oil hose fittings to the engine. I'll need to close-up the right side intake air duct to cooler gap with an aluminum piece. The cooler has flanges across the front and back on both top and bottom that are pre-dilled to attach to the bracket. The cooler also came with a brass hose fitting to screw into the outflow end of the thermostat boss and a brass right angle hose fitting to screw into the bottom left side of the cooler, each for 1/2" ID hose.
Gary Brink
New member
I guess better late than never but I should add that Jerry Sather did the paperwork and received a field approval for the Pacific Oil Cooler in a Bellanca 1413-2. I have the 337 to prove it. I think that I will send a copy of that 337 to Pacific Oil Cooler if they want it so they can include it with coolers sold for the 1413 series.
Gary Brink
Gary Brink
jeffw
New member
I referred to the Service Instructions manual for the 6A-165-B3 and an instruction from an engine over-hauler for reinstalling engine to aircraft and attaching the oil cooler lines.
The Service Instruction for the engine illustrates the Oil By-Pass Plate and Relief Valve indicating both the Oil Out-of-Engine port fitting and the Oil Into-Engine port fitting. The engine reinstall instructions shows the connection from the oil cooler to the Oil Into-Engine coming from the thermostat boss fitting on the cooler. So, on my engine, the oil temperature is sensed at the Oil Out-of-Oil Cooler port. That was counter to my assumption that the oil temperature would be sensed after it was heated by the engine, apparently it is more important to know what the oil temperature is AFTER it goes through the cooler.
There has to be a logic or a reason for this, someone who knows more about engines can weigh in. And, is this where all other A/C engine oil temp is sensed?
The Service Instruction for the engine illustrates the Oil By-Pass Plate and Relief Valve indicating both the Oil Out-of-Engine port fitting and the Oil Into-Engine port fitting. The engine reinstall instructions shows the connection from the oil cooler to the Oil Into-Engine coming from the thermostat boss fitting on the cooler. So, on my engine, the oil temperature is sensed at the Oil Out-of-Oil Cooler port. That was counter to my assumption that the oil temperature would be sensed after it was heated by the engine, apparently it is more important to know what the oil temperature is AFTER it goes through the cooler.
There has to be a logic or a reason for this, someone who knows more about engines can weigh in. And, is this where all other A/C engine oil temp is sensed?