Oil cooler for 1413.

Jeff:

I'm no expert on Franklins and certainly not an expert with oil coolers. My experience has been that oil temperature is measured at the oil cooler exit. That is how it is done in Continental GTSIO-520's (my wallet hurts just thinking about that 421.....) and that is how it is done in the turbine equipment I've flown. To my Cro-Magnon brain, it makes sense because it is the oil exiting the cooler that is going back to the engine for lubrication. Just my two cents worth. BTW, thank you so much for sharing your experience with the Pacific installation - I'm looking forward to duplicating it on NC86916 soon.
 
bdon > that makes sense, that the oil temp as it is going to the engine is what's important to know.

I have been working on installing the new cooler. The latest thing I have found is that the mounting bracket that was provided with the cooler needs that its upper/outer flanges be about 5/8" longer (at least on mine) to have enough material to get the bolt attach holes drilled in with adequate margin. I'm going to suggest to Wayne at POC that the flanges should be longer standard, they can always be trimmed off but hard to add onto. BTW the aluminum for the bracket is 0.090" thick.
 
For what it's worth....
Back in the mid 70's, when Franklin was still in business, I contacted the "Chief Engineer," Ed White, about
oil temperature issues. He stated the temperature limitation was 235F, "out of the oil cooler." I may still have that letter.
Dan
 
Dan Cullman said:
. . . the temperature limitation was 235F, "out of the oil cooler."
Dan
Click to expand...

Would 'limitation' be interpreted as the maximum operating temperature (red line) for the oil temp? and, what would be a good "normal" temp to see assuming an outside 'average' temp range of around 60F - 70F?
 
I found that letter last night and Mr White stated that my observed temperature of 100-105C was within
limits. I'd say that from my experience with these and other engines that 80-100C is in the ballpark.
You've got to get the oil hot enough to get the water out.
Dan
 
Jeff:

Many thanks for the updates on your oil cooler installation. I had a nice talk with Wayne at POC and he emailed the 337's for installing the 102C replacement on a Franklin powered Stinson 108, but he couldn't find the Jerry Stather 337 for installing the same cooler on a 14-13. I called Robert Szego at the club and he is looking for a copy of this 337. Is there a way to configure this web board to have a searchable 337 folder? It could come in handy.....

Brad Donner
NC86916
 
Dan Cullman said:
You've got to get the oil hot enough to get the water out.
Click to expand...

Does the temp have to get to boiling or above, or does getting it up to around that enough to get the water out? I'm sure boiling temp is better, but is 80 - 100 C good enough if it stays there for a while?
 
Many thanks to Robert for getting me the 337 attached to this post!

At the risk of muddying the waters slightly, there has been dialogue about a Jerry (Gerald) Sather 337 for the Pacific Oil Cooler P/N G723838 in a 14-13. POC P/N G723838 appears to be the same oil cooler as the POC 102C discussed in this thread, which is actually POC's REPLACEMENT for the 102C.

The 337 is attached as a PDF. To clarify some points:

1. Jerry Sather is the mechanic who submitted the 337; the airplane (N1413A) was owned by Gary Brink at the time the 337 was submitted.

2. The 337 documents / approves the installation of POC P/N G723838. It's still early here in Texas, but once POC opens, I'll call Wayne and clarify that P/N G723838 is the POC 102C replacement cooler that is the subject of this thread.

3. A largely irrelevant point, but the original installation of a POC cooler in N1413A was done by 'persons unknown' without a 337 or logbook entry. The attached 337 documents (and approves) the installation of the replacement POC P/N G723838 that replaced the unapproved / undocumented original installation of a POC P/N G723838.

My 337 for this installation will be submitted today for approval. If it is approved, I'll post a copy of the approved 337; it it isn't approved, I'lll post a diatribe about the FSDO.

Best Wishes,
Brad Donner
NC86916
 
Reference my previous post with the attached 337 for a POC oil cooler installed in a 14-13:

The part number referenced in that 337 - G723838 - is superseded. The current part number for this installation is 102C Experimental. This information came from Wayne at POC.

Wayne also stated they (POC) would work on a PMA'd cooler for the 14-13 aircraft, since this thread has generated so much interest. It will be a direct replacement for the Fedders 1311H, which means it will be the same size and shape. I have agreed to donate my existing Fedders 1311H to Pacific for use as a template. The PMA process takes several months, so don't expect a 1311H replacement to be available any time soon. In the mean time, the 102C Experimental installation discussed in this thread remains a viable option.

Again, many thanks to Jeff Warren, Gary Brink, and Robert for sharing all the documentation and information on this installation.

Brad Donner
NC86916
 
OK, people, this is another "last post" on the oil cooler issue. I believe that I had stated earlier that the new oil cooler fit nicely with no alterations necessary on the cowel. I believe it was about a half inch narrower that the old one but a bit of closed cell insulation solved that issue. The final total cost was just a few dollars shy of $1,300 so it is not inexpensive. One of our members is going to send me a pdf copy of my 337 for this oil filter in a 1413-2. I haven't received the pdf file yet but if you want a copy, I will be able to email one to you. My email is garylbrink@yahoo.com.
 
I am working on my 337 submittal to the Columbia SC FSDO and this question came up while discussing things with Wayne at POC.

What is the original Heat Exchangers, Inc. oil cooler PART NUMBER for the Bellanca Cruisair with the 150 Franklin? I have an original (probably a reprint) Cruisair Senior Parts Manual. On page 6 the oil cooler is listed as Part Number-18144, Description-Heat Exchange-Oil Cooler, Price-$34.00 ea.

The picture on the facing page shows an oil cooler that looks a lot like the one I removed from my Bellanca; the picture is not very detailed. The picture in the manual does show enough to indicate that the cooler had a label on the top side of the cooler. Mine did not have the label.

The part number listed in the Bellanca Parts Manual (18144) is likely Bellanca's part number.

Does anyone have one of the old Heat Exchangers, Inc. oil cooler with any label that indicated the Heat Exchangers part number?

This could be very important to POC in that if it is the same as the HE cooler that was installed on the original Stinson 108, POC may be able to include the Bellanca along with the PMA efforts they are pursuing for the Stinson.

And, Gary -- my original HE cooler is about 2" shorter (overall length) than the 102C-Experimental that I received; it is also approx. 1/2" narrower (front to back) than the original, but very close to the same in cooler height.
 
I called Wayne on 2/11/16 at POCS to get a reading on another disconnect I found in putting my 337 submittal together for the 102C oil cooler into my 14-13-2.

Here's what Wayne at POCS told me yesterday (2/11/16), and this is what he said >>

The P/N G723838 provided on Gary's 337 is not the oil cooler's model number, 102C. G723838 on Gary’s 337 is POCS’s ID number for the core matrix used to build the POCS oil cooler Model Number 102C. Additionally, G723838 is a replacement for the core matrix that was used to build the Fedders 1311H cooler that is no longer available.

The original Heat Exchangers oil cooler that Gary sent to POCS was also Model Number 102C. The new aluminum oil cooler from POCS is Model Number “102C EXPERIMENTAL”.

Wayne edited the invoice for my POCS 102C oil cooler to add a reference to the P/N G723838 as being the core matrix element of my 102C cooler. This additional information on my invoice makes a connection to Gary's 337, since that G723838 was presented as the oil cooler part number on his 337 and my oil cooler model number is the 102C.

Anyone ordering a 102C from POCS for their Cruisair and intending to use Gary’s 337 as a supporting document will need to have the G723838 core matrix reference number included on their receipt to make that connection. Unless when my 337 is approved it will include 102C as the oil cooler model number.

This whole explanation of discoveries is a bit of a shaggy dog story and probably a little confusing. If you do order a 102C from POCS, call Wayne and discuss with him until you feel comfortable about going this route with a new cooler, or send me an email with your contact number and I'll be glad to help you out as much as I can.
 
Jeff, why don't you submit your 337 to the same FSDO that Gary did? Talk to the person who signed Gary's 337. I did that to get an air filter approved, when I called the Cincinnati FSDO. I basically resubmitted the same 337 that Pat did to get his air filter approved. He was a little surprised that I lived in Oregon, but he did approve it!
 
I did not know that submitting beyond the 'local' FSDO could be done.
My IA has a good relationship with the Columbia SC FSDO and he feels pretty comfortable, but I will ask him what he thinks about doing that.
 
FSDO shopping. They don't like it but there's no rules against it. What you do want to be careful about is submitting a 337 and getting it rejected. That's Why it's advantageous to talk to the FSDO Guy that has approved it already and see if he'll do it for you. They are/may be cognizant that you may have had it rejected at another FSDO. In other words, don't go to Mom if Dad already you said no!
 
The 337 to install a Pacific Oil Coolers (POC) 102C on my 14-13 has been approved - sorry for the delay in getting a copy of the approved 337 to the board. Attached is my approved 337 and a page from another 337 that was used as 'approved data'.

Other posts to this thread about FSDO shopping are correct. My airplane lives in Fort Worth, TX. The FTW FSDO is good with avionics, alternator conversions, etc. They are not so good about much else. My 'favorite' IA is Jamie Treat in Elbert, CO - he is restoring my 1946 Fairchild F-24 and has had to obtain a number of 337's for it. His local FSDO has been very cooperative and reasonably (by government standards) timely. There is no policy or mandate to submit 337's to the FSDO in which the airplane is registered - you can FSDO shop all you want.

I'll share results of my new oil coolers' performance once the weather here starts getting hot.

Best Wishes,
Brad Donner
NC86916
 
I learned a great deal from those of you who installed the Pacific Oil Cooler 102C cooler on your Cruisairs. And now that I'm doing the installation on my own airplane, I'm learning even more :)

As other posts have mentioned, the alignment of the bracket provided by POC is important. I'm positioning my new oil cooler in such a manner that the lines from the oil pressure mechanism line up with the oil inlet and outlet ports of the new cooler just as they lined up with the same ports on the original Fedders cooler. This alignment biases the new oil cooler towards the aircraft's left side, which makes sense when you look at it.

As I removed the original Fedders cooler, I had a bit of an 'oh s**t' moment when I discovered that the oil inlet and outlet lines were simply clamped to the cooler, rather than attached with AN fittings. Obviously, this worked great for a long time, but I'm curious how many engines got trashed when a state of the art, Made In China worm clamp failed and allowed all the oil to exit the engine at either the inlet or outlet of the cooler. I'm converting my installation to replace the clamped lines with AN8 threaded fittings. If you check out the pics of my 'original' Fedders installation, you'll be amused to see the automotive / hotrod 'braided' lines with these AN-esque fascias that cover the worm clamps.

Lastly, I discovered that my Fedders oil cooler had no vernotherm. I'm not sure why, but it simply doesn't exist. Someone said the oil pressure setting / bypass mechanism on the left side of the engine doubled as a vernotherm, but I doubt it. The POC oil cooler has a $190 yellow tagged vernotherm that will be clearly visible in the next set of pics.

Enjoy the pics. I'll send more when we get the new bracket properly aligned and the new cooler installed.

Best Wishes,
Brad Donner
NC86916
 
Down and back from Sun 'n Fun in my Cruisair last week.
Weather was not in the summer brutal hot range, a little bit on the cool side going down from upstate SC.

The oil cooler temp gauge showed about 10-15 degrees C cooler than it normally did with the old cooler. That was nice, not sure how accurate it is but that was better than it reading hotter.

I looked into changing from the AN stirrup style hose clamps (not the more typical screw into the slotted band type) that were on my old cooler's hoses; after checking things out a bit and finding a source at a local NAPA store that uses a very high quality of hose fabrication tooling, I was advised by my AI and ran across more info from an on-line source that changing to those type hoses and fittings would require an in-depth engineering report for the AN style pressed-on hoses and fittings since they were not the type that was originally used on the Cruisair (not sure how accurate that info is, but I was convinced enough not to go that route).
 
Other than hose clamps being kind of hokey, have you (or anyone else) had a problem with the connections to/from the oil cooler. Have you asked if Pacific Oil Cooler can make/and get approval for a more "robust" type of connector. I wonder how difficult it would be to get a field approval (to a field approval) altering the oil cooler connections?
Regarding auto parts, just remember that SOME (not all) auto parts, like flare fittings, are REALLY NOT appropriate for our planes...even though we have factory drawings that specify speedometer cable connecting the trim tab to the shaft, and auto part generators and ...? Hmmm, I wonder if we could help NAPA get FAA production/manufacturing approval.http://www.bellanca-champion.typeclubs.org/BB3/posting.php?mode=reply&f=3&t=4086#
OK, got to stop this dreaming and get back to finishing my taxes!
 
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